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Open source interviews #32 - Josh Pigford, founder of Maybe.co

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00:01 Hey everyone, welcome to the Open Source Founder Podcast.

00:04 Joining me today is Joss Pickford, founder of Maybe Finance.

00:07 Joss, thank you so much for joining.

00:09 You've taken the world by storm this year.

00:12 The repository grew from zero to like 12,000 stars in a matter of a week or two.

00:16 And I'm sure your life now is in a totally different place.

00:19 So thank you for making the time.

00:21 And before you get too bored with like going on podcasts and sharing your story.

00:25 So I'd love to get started, of course, with your personal background and then how maybe got started, how we got here today.

00:32 Sure, sure.

00:33 Well, yeah, so thanks for having me.

00:35 I'm pumped to be here and talk shop.

00:38 So my personal background, I've been making stuff, building stuff for the Internet for 20 years.

00:43 I've been making stuff, building stuff for the internet for 20 years.

00:50 I went to school for design, but ultimately sort of self-taught on everything.

00:55 And sort of ended up, started maybe back in 2021.

01:01 That was sort of coming off the heels of my previous company called Baremetrics,

01:07 which is a SaaS analytics company company that um i sold in 2020 um and then maybe was sort of i had no intention of well i guess i didn't have any specific plans

01:13 post acquisition um but you know i guess i assumed i'd build something but you know my retirement

01:20 lasted all of about like i don't know, three or four months before I got bored.

01:29 And so I started working on maybe after... Yeah, so we had this acquisition.

01:31 We started working with a financial advisor.

01:33 And I was trying to be careful to not burn it to the ground on finances.

01:39 And then as I had all the free time in the world, I could really dig in and see, well,

01:44 what does a financial advisor do?

01:46 Sort of realizing, oh, they're like not that special for the most part.

01:50 And they certainly don't justify their percentage of assets under management for their fees.

01:55 Maybe we can build something for people to sort of self-manage all that stuff.

02:00 That was sort of the impetus for maybe back in 2021.

02:05 Exactly. And basically after the acquisition, you needed a good way to manage your newfound wealth

02:09 and wanted to take matters into your own hands. Absolutely. And now the first years of Maybe was

02:16 a closures project. You build with a team and with funding, and now things have changed and

02:20 it's open source. I saw on Twitter this awesome thread you shared about, you know,

02:25 the realities of that experience of running a venture-funded startup,

02:30 a consumer, so like fintech product,

02:33 where usually these things don't charge, it's just like selling your data.

02:36 And then I'm very curious to hear like first person right now,

02:41 like about that experience, about like certain pitfalls

02:44 that maybe other people could avoid.

02:46 And then how you're looking

02:47 to manage things differently today with maybe.

02:52 Yeah.

02:53 So we had, we kind of went,

02:55 you know, VC funded is probably not even

02:57 like the right term

02:58 and we're funded ultimately,

02:59 but we went the crowdfunding route.

03:03 And so we have 1,300 investors.

03:06 So there's a lot of people who have put some money in.

03:09 Now, some of those have put in a lot, like six figures worth of money, up to that point at least, back in 2021, 2022.

03:18 But the sort of expectation there was your typical sort of let's put a bunch of money in.

03:25 of expectation there was you know your typical sort of let's put a bunch of money in we raise or hire a bunch of people and we grow and then you end up raising like a series a whatever you

03:31 kind of get on that um yeah um and so we the sort of issue there especially in the b2c world is that

03:42 um it can be very expensive to acquire customers in the short term and especially in the B2C world, is that it can be very expensive to acquire customers in the short

03:46 term, especially in the fintech world. And so we spent a bunch of time building this

03:53 financial product. And then ultimately, the runway could not support... We weren't growing

03:59 fast enough to support the burn that we had from having a team of eight people full time.

04:05 And so we had to ultimately just like strip the team down to two or three of

04:11 us.

04:11 And then ultimately decided to pivot away from that,

04:15 that sort of financial product that we initially built and shut it down.

04:20 And,

04:20 and,

04:21 you know,

04:21 for better or for worse,

04:22 a lot of people find themselves in that situation,

04:24 like quick follow up here. Like, what was it like? You said you and, you know, for better, for worse, a lot of people find themselves in that situation, like quick follow up here.

04:25 Like, what was it like?

04:26 You said you just, you know, you have to let people go and yeah.

04:31 Yeah.

04:31 I mean, you know, letting anybody goes not fun.

04:34 Um, sort of the unpleasant reality of the type of business we were building at the time.

04:39 Um, so, you know, it's, but at the end of the day, you either, you have to do what you can to make the entity itself survive, right?

04:50 Like we could have kept everybody on board and then no, the, not only does everybody get fired eventually anyways, but the company itself and all of its assets and all the things that have been built don't exist either. So you say like, well, we have to let everybody go and then there's a chance that the entity exists

05:05 in the future

05:06 and we can then

05:08 either rehire people

05:09 or, you know,

05:10 hire other people

05:11 in the future,

05:11 that kind of thing.

05:13 Absolutely.

05:14 And, you know,

05:16 must have been really hard

05:17 for the whole team.

05:18 Now, today,

05:19 running Maybe Right Now

05:20 is an open source project.

05:22 I mean, first of all,

05:22 if you can quickly give us

05:23 a rewind of the last few weeks and then I'd love to talk about like you know team the community and funding

05:29 and things like that yeah so um a couple of weeks ago i was um not doing anything i mean you know

05:38 it stopped working on maybe itself really six months ago and um so i was kind of feeling a little nostalgic we've had a you know

05:47 we built we built a ton of like this really full-featured financial product like you know

05:52 functioning this was one sort of like beta thing like we had really powerful full-featured software

05:57 that um you know really well designed everybody loved but like it was hiding behind you know this

06:03 like private git repos well

06:05 man that would i hate for this thing to just sit there and never see the light of day so uh on a

06:11 whim was just like oh let me just like you know i'll strip out the git history make sure we're

06:16 not like giving away keys to certain you know environment stuff and then put it out there and

06:21 see what happens and so did that send out a a little

06:25 tweet about it and then yeah very quickly you know we went from like no no people knowing about the

06:31 git repo to i think it's like 13 000 stars on github or something today like it was bonkers

06:37 and that was all within like a week basically so yes um yeah so so at that point it's like way well if there's that much interest

06:47 certainly there feels like that's an opportunity to revive the business side of this right so

06:53 that's when i started digging a lot more into um not just open source software obviously i've you

06:59 know having been building stuff for 20 years like i've used and been involved with a lot of open source stuff, but the commercial side of open source and like, oh,

07:07 how can we parlay the open source part into some sort of business?

07:12 And so started spending a lot of time around that,

07:14 talking a lot to different people.

07:17 And yeah, so that's sort of now,

07:19 not only has the software sort of like become a reality again, but the business itself is now sort of back in full swing.

07:29 Absolutely. Perfect. And we'll get right into that quick follow up first.

07:33 What do you think captured people's imagination to lead to this?

07:37 Well, I think there are a couple of things.

07:39 So one, the fintech world is notoriously closed, right?

07:44 It's very private. Some of world is notoriously closed, right? It's very private.

07:46 Some of that's a security thing, right?

07:48 Like obviously nobody wants to have financial stuff just floating out for anybody to easily access.

07:54 So there's a lot that's done to keep that real tight.

07:57 But it's also a lot of the financial world, the way that it's monetized is by doing sort of less than savory things, right? So it's selling

08:05 data is sort of the biggest way to monetize

08:08 it. And so you can't

08:10 be real public about that stuff because

08:11 nobody likes that, right? Nobody wants their

08:13 data sold and all that

08:16 kind of stuff. So

08:16 the fact that there was this, not only

08:19 an open source

08:21 financial product available, but like a

08:23 full-featured, fully functional, not just like hey, I just threw this together over the weekend financial product available, but like a full featured, fully functional, not just like, Hey, I just threw this together in the weekend over the weekend kind of

08:28 thing, but you know, like a, a well-built full featured app that people can dig into. I think

08:33 that struck a chord. And on top of that, you know, personal finance, whether you're sort of like a

08:38 financial geek or not, you, you have, you, you deal with money. Every it's like a topic that

08:43 everyone has some sort of relationship with.

08:47 And so it sort of quickly strikes a chord with people.

08:50 On top of that, you've got Mint shutting down a couple months ago.

08:54 There's sort of this pent-up demand, I think, for this kind of thing.

08:59 So the stars were aligned.

09:01 They did, yes.

09:02 Where are we going now?

09:03 I mean, I'm sure some of your minds you

09:07 say it's been okay how do we revive the business that would involve funding building a team and

09:12 figuring out the sustainability and monetization side of things so what's the status there yeah so

09:19 we're um we've got a few new um investors who put some money in who are also like, um, on

09:29 board with the long-term play here.

09:31 So not just like, they're not interested or pushing for the sort of short-term, like let's

09:38 do series a series B series, you know, G like these like 12 rounds of funding or something

09:44 like that um the the belief

09:46 is they can build um not just uh a business that can have a good exit but like a business that can

09:51 be incredibly profitable as well so you know that's sort of the one of the big upsides to

09:57 open source is ultimately capital efficiency is sort of like the three dollar word there right so um you can build a very

10:05 profitable company um that way at least that's the belief so that's the that's what we're sort

10:11 of pursuing at this point and keeping the team really small as we work towards that

10:17 certainly and and a bit you know open sourcing of course can help with growing the team in the

10:22 sense that you can have a contribute-first approach, where people are actually involved with a project first, and then naturally transition to a full-time role when both sides want.

10:32 So that's excellent.

10:33 And then other superpowers, of course, you mentioned already, it's the trust and the transparency,

10:37 especially for a financial product that is helping here a lot.

10:42 The fact that you can build it in public and then the community aspect of it

10:47 that helps with the growth.

10:49 So all the stars aligned,

10:50 the open source motion,

10:52 just great catalyst on top.

10:54 And so what's the roadmap shaping like?

10:58 What's on your plate?

11:00 What would you like to do next?

11:01 So a lot of it's around,

11:03 you know, when we originally built Maybe,

11:10 we built it in the context of sort of much more complex infrastructure.

11:16 I, we had at the time we had like, I don't, it was something stupid. Like it was like four or $500,000 worth of like credits to AWS, but they're like startup program, but those things expire.

11:24 to AWS, but they're like startup program, but those things expire.

11:31 And so either way, so we've built on top of this AWS focused infrastructure that we've been ripping out so that it can be this much more self-contained, easy to self-host or

11:38 one-click deploy to Vercel or something like that.

11:41 So right now the focus is on rebuilding a lot of that and then also making the core

11:47 product not need these big data aggregators. So Plaid's sort of the classic example there.

11:54 That's great for a hosted option, like maybe where we have hundreds of thousands of users

12:00 who all need to connect different bank accounts. But if you're self-hosting, it's not an option just because Plaid charges massive fees.

12:08 So we're having to make it much more focused on, at least initially, self-hosting and importing

12:14 your own data.

12:15 So that's what we're working on at the moment.

12:16 Very interesting.

12:17 And of course, the extensibility that comes with open source can help here in terms of

12:20 new connectors, people contributing, billing for themselves what they need.

12:24 Absolutely.

12:25 And on that front, as well as for general feature development,

12:30 with Algorab, our team, we've been lucky to host you

12:32 on our platform for doing bounties.

12:34 And so I'm really curious to hear about your experience

12:36 with bounties, both the ones that you're funding yourself

12:40 to drive development forward, but also letting your community members

12:43 as well crowdfund development.

12:47 So very curious what the experience has been like.

12:50 And thank you.

12:50 Yeah.

12:51 So one of the parts of open sourcing this stuff

12:56 is certainly it's giving access to people

13:00 who have a skill set and an interest in something

13:05 but aren't necessarily interested in joining a company full-time

13:09 to contribute to it, right?

13:12 But that doesn't, to me, mean free work for us, right?

13:18 I certainly believe that people should be compensated for their time,

13:22 especially if we're going to commercially benefit from it.

13:26 When possible, we should offer some sort of compensation. So that's sort of like the

13:32 impetus for wanting to offer bounties in addition to just helping prioritize or expedite something,

13:38 right? So especially a week ago or something when we were like next deep and trying to get the thing

13:44 to function at all, well, there were next deep and trying to get the thing to function at all.

13:47 Well, there were certain things that needed to get done that were blocking anything else getting done.

13:49 So it's like, okay, well, let's offer a bounty to say,

13:52 hey, someone please prioritize this.

13:55 Who has the skill set for it?

13:57 So that's sort of how we've been using bounties.

14:00 I think long-term would love to make it a very

14:06 normal, consistent part of

14:08 our development process.

14:11 That's amazing.

14:12 You're leading the way right now with it.

14:14 Thank you so much for showing the example to

14:16 everyone else.

14:17 How do you feel about also the community

14:20 coming in and saying,

14:21 hey, I'd love to have this feature prioritized

14:24 or what do you people think?

14:25 And guess what?

14:26 I would also be happy to fund this as well.

14:28 Is that something you generally want to be open to,

14:31 kind of like keep it a little more controlled?

14:34 Yeah, I mean, certainly I think there's a lot of value

14:37 in getting community feedback on that stuff.

14:39 And, you know, I think my role at this stage is sort of getting lots of community feedback and then ultimately like deciding what to prioritize.

14:52 Right.

14:55 So that's sort of, yeah, that's kind of how we're approaching it at the moment.

14:59 Sounds good.

15:00 Are you, are you feeling overwhelmed at all?

15:03 Or sort of like, are you just starstruck

15:05 no i don't not actually no not really i think the um i sort of i'm like pumped you know

15:14 it's super exciting um and my brain you know just sort of naturally goes a thousand miles an hour

15:20 anyways so that's continuing and it's just um figuring out how to

15:25 prioritize that stuff and sort of organize it like this morning i've been working on essentially

15:29 public roadmappy kind of things like okay how do i show the community here's what here's what we're

15:36 focusing on like here's how here's and here's how we're prioritizing those things and then when

15:39 people say what can i be working on well then i can send them a link to like, here are the current top priority things.

15:47 So to me,

15:48 that's the stuff that,

15:49 you know, I'm most excited about at the moment and kind of helping take the,

15:54 for lack of like a better phrase,

15:56 like the whole word of like,

15:58 imagine,

15:59 yeah,

15:59 it's just this massive group of people working on something and kind of

16:02 pointing it in different directions.

16:06 Exactly.

16:07 Something about the workflow we could add here

16:09 for people who currently contribute

16:11 or are new to contributing to maybe

16:12 in terms of looking through the issues,

16:15 maybe creating a draft PR,

16:16 how they bring about the propositions

16:18 or following up the existing.

16:21 These features, yeah.

16:22 What's the workflow?

16:23 Yeah, sure.

16:25 It's,

16:26 you know,

16:27 check the, the,

16:28 I just,

16:29 I mean,

16:30 literally this morning have been like reorganizing everything into GitHub

16:32 projects and then milestones.

16:34 So it's checking out those,

16:36 seeing what's,

16:37 what's sort of the current top priority.

16:39 And if you can focus on those things or it's go through the issues and look

16:43 by,

16:43 you know,

16:44 I've tried to categorize things

16:45 by front end and back end

16:46 and bugs

16:47 and all that kind of stuff.

16:48 So take your skill set,

16:50 check out some of the stuff

16:51 that's there

16:52 and see if there's a spot

16:53 for you to jump in.

16:54 Or if there's,

16:55 you know,

16:55 something you want

16:56 that doesn't exist

16:57 because there's not an issue for it,

16:58 then post an issue for it

16:59 and, you know,

17:01 the community will jump in

17:01 and have some feedback for you.

17:04 Sounds great. Going back to your previous topic about, you know, the community will jump in and have some feedback for you. Sounds great.

17:05 Going back to your previous topic about, you know, monetization and sustainability of the project.

17:10 At the moment, are there specific pathways forward that you're considering something you could share with people?

17:17 Yeah.

17:17 So the goal will be offering a hosted version of maybe essentially what we did before.

17:24 And the monetization side of that becomes obviously the ease of hosting is a

17:29 big part of that.

17:30 But,

17:30 you know,

17:31 going back to the sort of data aggregators like plaid the reality is that

17:35 won't for the vast majority of people,

17:38 that won't be an option to have a data aggregator locally.

17:41 You know,

17:42 in the U S teller has been the one that we've been using a lot um

17:46 most recently to sort of help people import their bank data but the reality is like that doesn't

17:51 exist especially on a global sort of scale um so a hosted maybe option will be include with it the

17:59 ability to just one click sort of connect your bank accounts and be done with it um so that's sort of the path to monetization for us is that kind of stuff.

18:07 And then we've got a whole separate B2B component with sort of all the stuff that we build for

18:14 maybe essentially turning that into sort of B2B fintech APIs for other businesses to pay

18:21 for usage on.

18:22 So that's sort of the two categories.

18:25 That sounds very cool.

18:27 Anything additional we could add maybe about this B2B side of things here,

18:31 how that might evolve?

18:32 And I understand it's early, right?

18:33 But before you also had a map.version of that, yeah.

18:38 Yeah, yeah.

18:38 So that's still, I mean, the reality is we're probably at least a few months out

18:43 on even having first versions of that kind of stuff, figuring out what's sort of the most impactful things to release.

18:53 There's stuff like transaction standardization, right?

18:56 When you look at a bank statement, it's like this cryptic set of abbreviations and whatnot onto your bank statements, like turning that into human readable stuff,

19:08 stock market data, that kind of thing.

19:10 So just a bunch of different little bits that you put into a single suite of FinTech tools.

19:13 Absolutely.

19:14 That sounds great, actually.

19:17 And maybe we could actually jump into the demo section.

19:21 I mean, before that, is there something additional

19:23 you might like to add right now

19:26 in terms of your experience so far?

19:27 Maybe any pitfalls you faced,

19:29 you avoided, or some advice to other people?

19:33 You know, I think a lot of it's just people overthink it.

19:37 Obviously, you have to be careful

19:38 when you're open sourcing something.

19:42 You know, we get the whole like licensing things and whatnot,

19:45 but I mean,

19:45 the,

19:46 I think a lot of people hold on really tight to their code as though it's,

19:51 the code itself is somehow magical.

19:54 And,

19:55 you know,

19:55 for some,

19:56 in some cases it is,

19:57 but for,

19:57 I think for most people,

19:58 if you can,

19:59 you know,

20:00 having something be open source and that other people can contribute to can

20:04 be a positive thing.

20:05 I don't know,

20:05 case by case,

20:06 but,

20:07 um,

20:08 for us,

20:08 obviously it's been,

20:09 it's been pretty nice.

20:12 And maybe it helps when you don't have much to lose.

20:15 That's right.

20:16 If you were already shutting things down,

20:18 like,

20:18 okay.

20:22 For sure.

20:23 But,

20:23 uh,

20:23 but no,

20:23 no,

20:23 thank you.

20:24 Uh,

20:24 I think, I think a lot of people uh will be i mean ourselves

20:28 included actually are looking at this and and it helps with an already existing consideration of

20:33 like when's the right time for us like what's left before you can take a leap right i you know i think

20:38 um i think it's one of those things like if we had open sourced this from the start, I don't know that we would have had the same sort of interest, right?

20:52 Like there are, I've seen multiple sort of personal finance open source projects, but they're like very early stage or they've been around forever, but like nothing's really took off.

21:04 Um, or they've been around forever, but like nothing's really took off.

21:11 Like the fact that we dropped this fully functional, full featured financial app out of nowhere, um, I think was probably the reason that it really took off.

21:15 Um, you know, as an, instead of a, like, let's build this thing from scratch together.

21:19 Like, nah, it's a separate thing.

21:20 But like the fact that we dropped again, but my tweet was like, here's what a million dollars

21:24 worth of FinTech software looks like.

21:26 People are like, oh, dang.

21:28 So the headline is what sold it, I think.

21:34 Totally.

21:35 Quick side note here about Twitter and social media in general, the way you have experienced your presence there, maybe for people who are not that active,

21:47 urging them to do it or giving them a piece of advice.

21:51 And even kind of like if you could recommend people that you personally follow or find entertaining

21:54 that other people could check out.

21:56 I mean, God, I've been on Twitter forever.

22:02 I don't know, since I think it was 2007.

22:05 I've been around a long time. And with BareMetrics,

22:07 I was very public about

22:09 we shared

22:11 all our financials and stuff publicly.

22:13 So that's kind of been my shtick

22:15 for the better part of close to

22:17 10 years.

22:19 I think there are pros and cons

22:21 to being... There's this sort of like... I think

22:23 now it's like the build in public sort of movement is sort of how it's categorized.

22:28 But I mean, there are pros and cons to that.

22:32 I don't think that inherently just posting numbers is all that valuable.

22:38 I think it's when you've got some sort of story to tell or that it's beneficial to your customers or something like that.

22:43 got some sort of story to tell or that it's beneficial to your customers or something like that.

22:44 Like,

22:44 and I think the case of maybe it's like,

22:46 Oh,

22:46 a transparent financial company.

22:49 Like that's a,

22:50 that's a,

22:51 that's a rarity.

22:52 Right.

22:53 So for us,

22:54 that's sort of a selling point,

22:55 but I don't know that just being open for open sake is all that valuable.

23:01 But I do think sharing with people builds a community,

23:07 right. Of other people to interact with.

23:11 So, I don't know. Pros and cons. You do whatever you want kind of thing.

23:14 Yeah. It's his own, but it definitely helps.

23:19 Absolutely. In our transition to the demo section, maybe we could either start with the repository and then move forward

23:23 to the app or do it the other way around. Up to you.

23:26 Let's see how this screen sharing

23:28 works. As we've been chatting,

23:30 I've been trying to get...

23:31 I think we've had like 200

23:34 commits in the past

23:35 few days, and I'm trying to update

23:38 it locally and make sure that

23:39 I can get this thing functioning.

23:43 Hold on one second

23:44 here. Let's see.

23:45 There we go.

23:49 So there's, yes, the repo itself.

23:55 Yeah, I mean, you know, I think this is,

23:59 my background is not in like React. And so I've been, I'm a Rails guy at my core.

24:04 So I've been, I'm a Rails guy at my core.

24:11 So my understanding is this is relatively typical of a sort of React Next.js app.

24:17 But I think the biggest things here,

24:19 we've sort of had this monorepo

24:22 and then broken it down into these individual apps.

24:25 Most of the sort of interesting this mono repo and then broken it down into these individual apps. Most,

24:25 most of the sort of interesting stuff happens in the client.

24:29 And that's where like all the,

24:31 at least user facing stuff happens.

24:36 I wonder actually if you might,

24:37 if you're considering our own live streaming kind of like,

24:40 you know,

24:41 when you're working on the day.

24:43 Yeah.

24:44 So I it would be

24:46 uninteresting for me to live stream because i'm not doing much coding on this um it's uh there's

24:51 everybody else is doing most of the coding at this stage um um maybe other people could record

24:57 themselves maybe so contributing to maybe right sure i've thought about um us doing in like our

25:03 discord having you know essentially like people people jumping in and either pair programming or just streaming while they're working on issues.

25:11 It could be kind of interesting for sure.

25:14 Yeah, it's something to watch for sure.

25:17 Sweet.

25:18 So everyone who hasn't already, hop over and give a start to the repo.

25:22 Take the app for a spin.

25:23 Give your feedback.

25:24 Check out the open issues. maybe submit a pull request.

25:27 And without further ado, maybe we can jump into the app demo.

25:31 Yeah, let me switch over to that. All right, there we go.

25:53 So this is what you see.

25:55 I just, right before we hopped on,

25:57 registered, put in my name and email address

26:00 to create an account.

26:02 So this is our onboarding, what you would see for onboarding.

26:07 So then you kind of pick this stuff.

26:14 And some of this is left over from one of the features that we had early on

26:19 was called Ask the Advisor, which we had like a personal financial advisor

26:22 that was paired with your account, a human.

26:26 So we've pulled some of that out.

26:28 However, these things also sort of give context to what your goals are, kind of what you're

26:34 working towards and will pre-populate certain parts of the app.

26:37 So absolutely impersonalize the experience.

26:39 If we could give an extra zoom here to show that.

26:42 Oh, sure.

26:44 There we go. Yeah, that it's perfect okay um let's see

26:49 all right um so this is the point where if you have a bank connector

26:58 like a teller or a plat or whatever you could start connecting accounts

27:02 um this these kind of things ultimately

27:06 set onboarding um things which i'll show in a second here um but it helps us sort of give you

27:13 a checklist of oh you need to go add these accounts oh you need to go add that asset or something

27:17 um let's see

27:21 Let's see.

27:21 something there we go

27:23 Something.

27:29 So, yeah.

27:30 So that's the onboarding. Yeah.

27:34 So then what some of that onboarding does is, you know,

27:36 gives you this getting started of like,

27:39 here are the things that you need to do based on what accounts you told us

27:42 that you have.

27:44 So at this stage, you know, you would go through,

27:48 yeah, this, this, I think triggers teller.

27:53 So that's how that would import stuff. Now what you can do is just say like,

27:59 I'll say checking.

28:00 I'll say checking.

28:07 So.

28:13 That'll go ahead and fill in some of this stuff.

28:16 Let me add one more thing and then I'll show you.

28:17 Yeah.

28:18 One other thing.

28:19 What this fills out. Can't remember what those postal codes are.

28:34 Let's see.

28:41 Okay.

28:42 So then, you know, you can add a bunch of that stuff and then go into – this is sort of like a retirement planner that's generated automatically for you based on the assets that you've added in and add different life events and that kind of stuff and to see like okay i'm planning on retiring at this age

29:10 while i run out of money at a certain point that kind of thing um so a lot of there's a ton of

29:17 stuff that exists when you start adding lots of different accounts so investment accounts

29:21 showing return and being able to compare them to the S&P 500 and things like that.

29:26 But that's what we're in the middle of getting functioning now is like the foundations there.

29:30 But previously we were using Plaid to import all that data.

29:33 So now we have to rebuild how you get all the data in there.

29:36 And that's sort of what we're in the middle of.

29:38 I think there's an educational element as well with a lot of these things.

29:41 Sure.

29:42 So yeah, for instance, you can click on pretty much anything

29:45 and we've got a whole thing

29:50 that using your data plugs in

29:52 to kind of tell you what that is,

29:54 why that matters,

29:55 how to affect it.

29:58 Yeah, that kind of thing.

29:59 So there's this sort of,

30:00 we call this like the educational sidebar

30:02 where you can kind of learn more about any given number or chart or anything like that.

30:10 And then planning or maybe like some goals or maybes that you said in the beginning?

30:15 Yeah, yeah.

30:15 So this is some of that stuff where you can say like, you could drop in like, okay, here I want to, you know, let's say buy a vacation home and i want to spend a million dollars on it

30:31 um we'll see so that tells me that's a bad idea at least at that based on everything that that

30:42 everything that it knows right like uh because there's no income here.

30:46 I haven't imported anything that implies I have income.

30:48 Exactly.

30:48 So it's saying based on what you currently have, and then you just all of a sudden spend a million bucks, like that's not going to work out great for you.

30:55 Yeah, your plan is failing.

30:57 Just don't do it.

30:57 Right.

30:58 You know, and we try to make that clear.

31:01 So, yes, that's the kind of like planning for those maybes.

31:04 And some of the stuff that we want to build is around scenario planning but like comparing scenarios.

31:09 So let's have three different options.

31:13 Well, what if I retire at this age?

31:14 Or what if I start this business?

31:16 Or what if I draw down more from retirement?

31:19 Like there's all sorts of different scenarios and being able to compare the outcomes of them is one of the things that we had sort of started on but never got to make put into production um so my bet is

31:31 that you're using this yourself for you know for your own needs uh if you start with the demo

31:38 it came into my mind like using this actually for maybe the business. Yeah, I think there's probably an argument to be made

31:49 about like future products,

31:53 like having a maybe for business kind of thing.

31:56 That's even almost like a replacement for like Intuits,

32:02 you know, QuickBooks, that kind of thing.

32:04 I don't know about necessarily bookkeeping, but maybe higher level of thing. I don't know about necessarily bookkeeping,

32:05 but maybe higher level business stuff.

32:08 I don't know. Maybe.

32:10 Maybe.

32:11 But back to those scenarios and planning and whatnot,

32:14 for example, you could map out your runway