Andreas Klinger | Algora TV

🔥 Investor Open Office Hours - The India Special 🇮🇳💸👀

Andreas Klinger

Watching now

zaf: heyhey 👋

rhazn: Hello

Kalpeshbhalekar: Hi

IoannisFlo: Hello!

Getmrahul: hello 👋

McPizza0: 🍕

Kalpeshbhalekar: Yes

rhazn: Looks good

McPizza0: we hear you

IoannisFlo: you'll want to update the OBS browser chat link again :D

rhazn: Wrong chat though again

rhazn: :D

McPizza0: 😂

rhazn: I like the "yo" though, very minimalist

Getmrahul: 😂

ShirodkarTejas: Hey hey

McPizza0: its the moustache!

idle123: Hey!

harshilcontineu: were you in Gujarat?

IoannisFlo: as a Greek, I think Indian food is *super* spicy

debkanchan: That's true. Flavour over heat

idle123: haha

rhazn: Why do you think nations struggle with building a similar tech infrastructure as india? I've seen it very basic in germany e.g. with the digital passport login some places but it is sooo bad and sooo slow. How come india builds these huge platforms quickly? Is it even the state pushing for those?

debkanchan: Shaadi.com i feel is cap. Cause govt. jobs is still extermely dominant in marriage market. Need to look at that claim with scrutiny

muruganWiseAnt: Hey Folks

Kalpeshbhalekar: COVID & Demonetisation really pushed India to build the digital Infra

filipealva: Crazy numbers o.o

IoannisFlo: so many insights wow, thanks Tanuj!

IoannisFlo: 🛰️ 👩‍🚀 🌌 🪐 ☄️🛸 🚀

pikhitesh27: look-alike of rishab pant

debkanchan: Github for non coders

McPizza0: email app 😂

pikhitesh27: a reading app

muruganWiseAnt: Personal Finance Answer Engine.

McPizza0: 😂

McPizza0: oh sheeeeeeesh

dahal: Lets rebuild an email app

dahal: Lets also call it Uninbox

McPizza0: ^^^great name !

McPizza0: im ready to buy a farm

McPizza0: not sure why im so nervous 😂

dahal: 😂😂😂

McPizza0: please dont tell my wife

idle123: haha

zaf: lmaoo

McPizza0: super interesting

muruganWiseAnt: looks awesome

McPizza0: Q: Can we feed in context of an existing app etc? or is it All//Nothing?

idle123: That's nice

McPizza0: Q: whats the iteration experience like? theres usually rounds of feedback, or change in requirements, how does it handle that?

abhinav054: I wanted to give a demo , but my internet is buffering stuff, and good job creatr guys

McPizza0: i thought id die from a 🍕 heart attack... guess not

idle123: Would like to try out your product, have applied for access using email- contact@queen.health

rfc: https://app.getcreatr.xyz/project/viewer/66196a7b64e3c73e8a09cd09

IoannisFlo: 3 days work, but 2 weeks "under non-Indian work conditions" 😅

IoannisFlo: features keep on giving

idle123: wow

c-ehrlich: spectacular demo

hannakc: very impressive

PeerRich: hi hi

McPizza0: "can build it in a weekend"

McPizza0: as a drone enthusiast, THATS AMAZING 🔥

idle123: thank Sri!

shreepoorna-rao: Hey all, Shreepoorna here,

McPizza0: im an avid 3d printer

McPizza0: super interested in this

McPizza0: maybe I should move to india 😂 so many cool hardware projects

IoannisFlo: I know right

McPizza0: whats the pre/post processing like?

IoannisFlo: any chance we could move the camera to see the prototype?

shreepoorna-rao: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shreepoornasrao/

shreepoorna-rao: https://twitter.com/shreepoorna365

McPizza0: whats the resolution of the printer?

McPizza0: if its not using lasers, what is it using?

vinkann: Hey i know it's almost top of the hour, do we have few mins for us to pitch about Skolarli ?

McPizza0: whats the nozzle material - even ruby suffers with metal infused?

McPizza0: interesting, would love to dive more into this

McPizza0: gtg!

IoannisFlo: kudos to the team! 👏

muruganWiseAnt: kudos

IoannisFlo: we've seen this with Indian engineers on Algora too, the working hours and ethic are crazy. respect

IoannisFlo: many are college students, casually submitting PRs at 4am

rfc: boom!

idle123: Bye

muruganWiseAnt: thanks

00:00 you you you you you you you you you you you you you Hello everyone. Okay, let's do this.

04:47 Hello, everyone.

04:55 Welcome to the second edition of RFC Request for Comments.

04:59 Folks, do me a big favor, join the chat.

05:02 It's on RFC2.

05:08 Join the chat, say hi if you're here. We will have a bunch of guests today, multiple startups and I also have like a few special guests.

05:14 So first up join the chat, say hi, let me know if everything is technically working

05:18 before I start rambling for like 15 minutes and then realized my mic was off one second One second.

05:47 Oh no, not again.

05:51 Okay, so am I again in the wrong...

05:57 Did I mess it up again?

05:58 Give me one second, guys.

06:01 This stuff isn't that easy.

06:02 Yeah, okay.

06:03 So I managed to again have the wrong chat in my browser. Jesus Christ.

06:16 Okay. Okay. People are here. That's awesome.

06:20 Sweet. Thanks so much for joining.

06:24 This is the second time, so we are all extremely...

06:29 Yeah, I like how I join and I'm like, goddammit, nobody's joining. I literally started DMing people

06:37 to like, hey, can you please say something? This is awkward. So I'm really happy that your folks

06:42 are here. So this is the second time we're doing this. Okay. So all of us are like highly professionals about this already, you know,

06:50 and we know how this works. We are like experts. Like you have been here multiple times. We,

06:56 we, we rock this. Okay. We roll here. So we'll come to request for comments the main idea is that you join the chat okay i'm kind of serious

07:08 about this this is meant to be uh interactive i will try to have um the twitter chat also open

07:16 but the twitter chat kind of sucks to be very honest uh it completely like it always like

07:22 loses the history so it's really really hard to just like

07:26 stay up to date what's like happening in the chat there you know i'm trying to hack around this so

07:33 there there seems to be unofficial apis and everything maybe i find a way to make this work

07:38 you know but like definitely not now not today and like be later. So join the chat on RFC2.

07:46 We are starting in one second.

07:48 I'm just like opening the Twitter chat again here

07:50 to make sure.

07:58 Here we go.

08:00 Oh, fuck this.

08:19 Yeah, okay.

08:19 It doesn't work.

08:25 If anybody's on Twitter and trying to chat there, I'm very sorry.

08:28 I think today I won't be able to do both simply for technical reasons.

08:31 But let's hope for the best.

08:34 Cool.

08:36 So what's the plan for today?

08:43 As some of you might know, I've been to India for a few days in February,

08:45 like basically three weeks.

08:47 I did several of the big cities.

08:51 I went to Ahmedabad, I went to Mumbai, I went to Bangalore,

08:52 I went to Delhi, Gaugan, all this kind of stuff.

08:58 The main thing that I took away is, number one,

08:59 that I should have come way earlier.

09:03 And number two is that I feel like the world is a little bit of like a software update on India.

09:11 And this is the reason why I want to do today like a little bit of an India special okay so again most of you are professionals like most of you have been here multiple times you're the

09:17 experts already so you know kind of who I am but like those who are new my name is Andreas I've

09:23 been CTO, VPE and a few other fancy acronyms for tech leadership roles

09:27 in my own companies, but also like in a few other companies.

09:31 A long, very long, very boring, very confusing CV.

09:33 The interesting version, the more short version is I was CTO at Product Hunt,

09:38 VP at Coinlist and I was CTO at OnDeck.

09:42 I also have a small micro fund where I invest globally and I did so

09:47 far roughly, I don't know, 105 or so investments or differently put to put this in context,

09:53 like way too many investments. And I'm trying to do this here as a little bit of like a

09:58 way to meet founders that maybe I wouldn't invest in, but like that still have like really

10:03 interesting opportunities and like also challenges worth discussing.

10:07 So we're doing the India special.

10:09 Yeah, I traveled.

10:11 Like I highly recommend my blog post

10:12 for the main reason that I wrote it and I love traffic.

10:14 But also I think I tried to make a good summary on it.

10:18 I had four core impressions, okay?

10:23 Number one, people really, really, really like selfies in india

10:27 every meeting i had i took at least one selfie afterwards

10:31 um and well jokes aside uh people are extremely friendly um like i i don't think i had ever such

10:40 a welcome anywhere including at home uh including like literally my own flat um

10:47 imagine you had like an indie band uh like a few years ago um it had like one or two hits and then

10:56 you go to some other country and you figure out that all of a sudden your indie band is like really

11:01 really popular there this is how i felt about like the companies i worked at like uh product hunt um angel list on deck like all of these companies are like

11:11 fairly popular in india for multiple reasons but like one of the main reasons is that they give

11:16 opportunity global opportunity to global talent and uh this is something i really recognized there

11:22 and this is also like one of the things where I kind of like shaped my career around.

11:27 And this was like just an awesome.

11:29 So tons of selfies.

11:31 And I want to give a shout out to everybody

11:32 who organized the meetup for me.

11:33 There were countless people who did this.

11:35 And like also like a lot of people who came.

11:37 And I really, really appreciate this.

11:38 Number two, and this will get me canceled on Indian Twitter.

11:47 Indian food is not that spicy. I don't know where this myth comes from i don't know why people keep saying that um yeah i know i know i

11:54 know this is controversial like this literally could get me cancelled um so let me explain okay

12:00 indian food has heat okay so it is quote-unquote spicy, you know?

12:05 But like no Indian cook would ever like destroy flavor to add more spice to it.

12:10 And when you go in comparison to like a Vietnamese or like a Thai place,

12:13 they just like throw 50 chilies in and you're done.

12:16 Trust me, I had like, I challenged multiple friends of mine

12:20 to bring me to the spiciest places.

12:21 Like it's all good.

12:23 Like it's way more like it's it's way more like

12:25 it's good food and it has heat but it's not that spicy i make my own hot sauces i'm a little bit

12:30 biased maybe you know but i i think that's like an overdone that like the work little software

12:35 update on this one at least um number three it's beautiful and i highly recommend you reading up on the actual history of India. And I tried to read some of the Vedas, some of the parts of the Gita, parts of the and so on and so on.

12:53 And I also like I'm a big history buff and like I highly recommend you to read about the East India Company and like the actual history of the quote unquote conquest of India.

13:05 Big spoilers. It wasn't a country as a private organization. It was

13:10 Mostly Indian soldiers and mostly Indian money

13:13 It's like one of those weird parallel universes that we live in were one of the biggest most like richest empires actually fell to like

13:21 England

13:23 Highly recommend you to read up on it like i still learned

13:26 that um a lot of like misconceptions around this so um there's a really good podcast by the uh

13:33 called empire that looks like a very good series on this and there's a really good youtube series

13:38 by extra credits highly recommend watching those um yeah i'm still like one of those generations

13:42 that grew up with the whole idea that like the Empire was undefeatable and technology advanced, all this kind of BS. Anyway, beautiful

13:50 country, highly recommend. So, the main thing. There are three things

13:55 that I would like to get covered today. A little bit of the speed of growth and progress

14:01 in India. Number two, how India is using software, essentially productization,

14:08 to solve societal problems of the scale of 1.4 billion people. And also I could talk a little

14:13 bit about deep tech and the aspects around deep tech in India, which is extremely interesting

14:19 due to the quality of research there. Especially number two, I want to go into it.

14:28 of research there especially number two i want to go into it okay um so as always the rules uh please join the chat share your pov ask questions we are here to hang out okay like this is meant

14:33 to be low-key chill i'm having you want to have a good time i hope you do guys too there won't be

14:38 any pitches there will be uh people um like showing their products and talking about their challenges, but the goal is not

14:47 that people pitch you or me.

14:52 The goal is not to have yet another Shark Tank or something like that.

14:57 There's enough Shark Tanks, we don't need another one, and so on and so on.

15:00 What happened to my camera? One second.

15:12 Okay. So this isn't like

15:14 funding pitches, this isn't Shark Tank.

15:16 We are here to help.

15:18 I hope you can help. I hope you can

15:20 add your own POV and your own ideas

15:22 and all this kind of stuff.

15:24 And so on and so on. So, agenda, we've got the DPI.

15:30 We're going to DPI and then we have like three founders joining for office hours.

15:34 I'm already like a little bit delayed so Tanush, one second, I'm very sorry.

15:40 So Indian 2024. The number rule in tech is if you are working in tech, your CEO or CFO is Indian.

15:50 Quick shout out to Naval, my ex-boss.

15:52 Or your CEO becomes Indian, like Mark here.

15:55 This is like a meme that's becoming more and more true and it shows a little bit like the

16:00 quality of Indian tech talent and the impact it has on the world. But more

16:06 importantly, India has like an absurd ridiculous growth story right now. This generation will see

16:11 India becoming a world power and if you talk to people there they know it and they all want to be

16:16 a part of that. Like it's really really interesting how you have like an extreme excitement and also

16:21 like an energy where people actually want to be part of that like global story and also want to be like an like have their like literally their own their

16:32 part of it like start their companies and all this kind of stuff there's a certain pride to

16:36 this which I thought like extremely interesting because when I grew up in like made in India was

16:41 like meant to be like low quality as like a yeah essentially like an

16:46 argument for low quality the modern POV on this is um the modern POV of this is like couldn't be

16:56 further away and now this is like India with pride which I thought like oh like it's really cool

17:00 um also um it's no longer doctors it's no no longer lawyers. The modern job that your auntie wants is

17:07 that you become a founder. Indian matchmaking sites have founders, like startup founder,

17:13 as like a keyword that you can pay for. And it's one of the highest paid keywords.

17:18 Being a startup founder is cool. Being on Shark Tank is cool. All of a sudden,

17:22 your family is actually pushing you to become a founder. The growth of amount of startups is ridiculous. And also the filters are insane.

17:31 To put this into context, parents are recommended to also have their children to apply to US

17:37 colleges as a backup because the filter to get into IIT, which is the Indian Institute

17:42 of Technology and it's multiple multiple universities is so high,

17:45 multiple times higher than MIT, for example, as you can see here.

17:51 And all of this on a ridiculous scale. I remember when I arrived in Ahmedabad,

17:55 I was like, my main impression was like, this is a relaxed small city and finally a little bit more

18:00 peaceful compared to Mumbai, which has like 20 million people. Ahmedabad has more

18:05 inhabitants in one city than the whole country I am from. It's like 8 point something million people.

18:13 We're talking a ridiculous scale here and it's only growing. Obviously we're talking high scale

18:20 but not necessarily like high volume like the purchasing power is still small, as you can

18:25 imagine.

18:27 Even to the point that only a small percentage of Indians actually pay the taxes.

18:39 So the interesting part, there are multiple aspects here, and I don't want to make this

18:43 into an economic lecture, and I want to get into the DPI part, which for me was the most interesting one here. But like, one thing that's really interesting to me is how you have the best way to think of India currently is that you have basically three groups of India, quality of living, basically Mexico, Indonesia, and Sub-Saharan Africa, and all of them can be in the same city, they can literally be neighbors.

19:05 Africa and all of them can be in the same city. They can literally be neighbors. And the scale of this is like insane. Like if you, if you're not Indian, like one, like 1.4 billion people in total,

19:11 like if the progress works, India will have like two Americas at the quality of life of the USA

19:17 within India. And that won't even like, that would be a fraction of the whole population still.

19:22 So if you have 1.4 billion people, the interesting part to

19:26 me at least is how do you actually solve those problems? And one thing that I've personally

19:33 thought is extremely impressive is that they essentially use prioritization as a solution to this, which as somebody from Europe where people struggle to have even standards

19:48 is crazy. Okay. Let me explain what I mean with this. It's called digital public infrastructure.

19:56 Okay. And on a high level, I will explain in a minute, but the main problem I have here, and we're

20:05 talking ridiculous scales, I will get to this in a minute, I'm not an expert for this and

20:09 I also want to learn.

20:12 And lucky, I have an expert for this.

20:16 The person I want to get on stage now is Tanuj.

20:23 And let me quickly get him on okay Tanuj do you hear me

20:34 yeah yeah that's okay cool Tanuj I will quickly switch to zoom so that everybody else sees you too

20:39 and okay guys give me one second.

20:53 And we are switching to...

20:55 Hey, Danush.

20:57 Hey.

20:58 Okay, cool.

21:01 So you're live.

21:03 We have currently, I think, I honestly don't know how many people

21:09 because Twitter doesn't give me the correct numbers, but I assume roughly 100 people online.

21:15 If it would be cool for you, what I would love to do is if you could give me a very quick

21:20 summary about your background and I will quickly, support this I will just like screen share uh and show this slide where I have you okay um to make this a bit easier okay cool so

21:32 um I am Tanuj I'm an engineer um by training and then I started a drone company sometime in 2013 14

21:39 uh and sort of extra building flight drones when that, you know, it was doing well in India, but then the government banned drones.

21:46 They just said no more drones.

21:47 So I decided that it's a harder problem to work with the government

21:51 than little rocket science.

21:53 So I tried to figure out how to do that.

21:55 I found my way in building digital public infrastructure.

21:59 That's the iSpirit, the big sort of five years in the middle.

22:02 I was a VC also somewhere in the middle trying to do this i spirit was a strange organization just like my strange organization

22:08 where it was mostly volunteer led so i joined basically for free was doing all this stuff

22:12 building upi and other things we'll talk about um and essentially i've been doing that for the last

22:18 eight nine years it's just that i've been doing that in different roles. You know, most recently, I started my own organization to do that called People Plus AI.

22:29 So I want to quickly give people a rundown what DPI actually means.

22:36 And obviously, what's happening with my thingy?

22:40 Can I not?

22:42 Ah, here.

22:42 Okay, sorry.

22:51 can i not oh here okay sorry um so what was really interesting to me is um so dpi stands for digital public infrastructure as far as i understand and i will just like ramble for five minutes and then

22:54 you explain me everything i got wrong okay did i just tell you what i learned on my trip and you

22:58 tell me what i got wrong and what i got right okay so think of it as like government tech quote

23:04 unquote or government

23:05 standards for technology. And the main idea here, which I thought is extremely impressive,

23:10 is that it's like all essentially thinking in layers. So the fundamental layer is identity.

23:18 So being able to say who is who, and that, and version of that is like KYC, know your customer,

23:24 And version of that is KYC, know your customer.

23:30 But also any form of just knowing who the person is that is using a service.

23:31 And this is fully biometric.

23:35 The second one here is payments.

23:38 And a lot of people here know that India uses QR codes to pay.

23:41 But I want to get into the scale for this in a second.

23:42 Then there's aggregations. I can have all of of my documents all of my bank accounts on my phone as a person from a country that accepts fax as like a way to send documents

23:52 to the government this is like insane to me okay but more importantly i want to get also like into

23:58 ondc which is basically a standard how to decentralize the concept around transaction and marketplaces,

24:06 which I would love to get into because this kind of shows where everything is going.

24:10 So how correct was I? How much did I push it?

24:16 So I'll say first, public, not government.

24:19 That's an important distinction we'll get into.

24:21 You're talking about public infrastructure, which is different from government infrastructure.

24:24 restriction we'll get into you're talking about lake infrastructure which is different from government infrastructure second layers is good but it implies inner layer outer layer upper layer

24:30 lower layer right it implies some positionality we prefer protocols when they are truly protocols

24:35 because protocols essentially implies look we're just sort of you know um we're just agreeing to

24:42 communicate or transact in a certain way. That's the basic fundamental thing.

24:46 Because when you say layer by layer, right?

24:49 Often we made this mistake where we talked about how these things got built.

24:52 ID, payments, data, right?

24:54 And we also talked about India's stack.

24:57 Later, when we try to internationalize this and we took it to other countries,

25:02 we realized the whole layer by layer methodology doesn't stand, right?

25:04 Because people then do the same journey.

25:07 We must first have a digital ID,

25:08 then we must have payment,

25:09 then we must have these data exchange,

25:11 data aggregation things.

25:12 But there is no sequentiality implied in the core idea, right?

25:17 It's the idea that, you know,

25:19 we have an infrastructure,

25:21 a digital infrastructure to assert one thing,

25:24 that I am who i claim to be

25:26 so with my digital id my adhar i can show up anywhere enter a 12 digit number and then either

25:32 biometrically authenticate fingerprint face iris or a one-time password on my cell phone which is

25:38 linked to my account and i can that i am indeed tanuj bhojwani and i'm not some imposter tanuj bojwani and i do

25:45 this digitally cheaply etc this unlocked a lot of transactions uh you know because trust is at the

25:52 root of transacting with people right whether i'm giving welfare or etc similarly with payments what

25:58 you talked about the qr code essentially the qr code is just a standard to you know in a way that

26:03 you agree and i agree and our my competitor agrees and everybody agrees.

26:07 And this is how you encode the payment address.

26:10 Where, when I say I want to send you money, where do I actually send it?

26:14 It's encoded into that QR code.

26:15 And we just agreed on that standard.

26:17 To actually send money, there's a switch.

26:19 There's a bunch of things happening, which we get into.

26:21 Right?

26:22 So those are the two sort of things I had to say about this.

26:24 One, public, not government. things happening which right so those are the two sort of things i had to say about this one public

26:25 not government and second it's not really layers but sort of various protocols intersecting and

26:30 you know like uh working with each other that's how i would put it there like there were like two

26:36 things um really interesting to me here like number one is the scale um so this is like a

26:42 slide i found on uh on up, like the payment. Yeah.

26:45 It's on the scale of Visa.

26:48 It's not like the same size.

26:50 I think it's like a fourth or something right now.

26:52 But it's also like not yet full population penetration.

26:55 It's still like comparably quote unquote early, you know what I mean?

27:00 But it's at least in the same magnitude.

27:01 Like a fourth is like ridiculous in size if you think about it, right?

27:10 India makes 57% of all real-time payments in the globe.

27:11 56%?

27:15 Yeah, 56-57% of all real-time payments.

27:18 So every time somebody can mows each other, and the equivalent of that in any country,

27:22 one in every two transactions in the world is in India. So to put this into context, okay?

27:25 When I go outside here for lunch,

27:27 I have a coffee shop next door

27:29 where I, after like weeks of flirting with the,

27:33 I think 60, 70 year old owner, okay, female owner,

27:37 convinced her that I can always pay with card

27:39 because I will always add like tip

27:41 so that she has the cost of the card included.

27:44 Because in Berlin, people don't like credit cards as payment.

27:48 And we're not talking QR codes or phone payments

27:50 or anything like that, you know.

27:54 So like, I'm like in a developing country right now

27:57 in comparison, okay?

27:59 Yes, that's true.

28:02 Look, to be generous to Germany,

28:04 is that it's easier when you don't have technology to

28:08 leapfrog to the newest and latest and the greatest. So India had that advantage. We didn't

28:13 have too much card presentation. I always hear this. Like, okay, cool. Like, ID, you know,

28:20 I know fintech founders in Europe that would kill for proper European wide, and that's like a

28:27 third or fifth of the population, you know, proper European wide ekyc and a proper account aggregation,

28:34 you know, we have like open banking and stuff, but like, and that's just a fraction of this.

28:38 When you say leapfrog, let's jump into ONDC because that's like where it's like heading

28:42 from my point of view can you quickly

28:45 explain what od ondc is because i completely put the explanation before perfect no worries so the

28:51 the idea is that on the left of this diagram i i don't know if people can can i just sort of

28:55 annotate yeah okay uh yeah i think so that's right can i just uh point to something i just want to

29:02 point to something is this color no i'll have to certain color okay i'm going to butcher your diagram further let's just look at this side of

29:08 this one second um yes perfect we see it amazing technology works exactly and that too on a video

29:16 call right that's the technology goes to die okay so on that left on that side of the diagram think

29:21 of that as uber amazon or any other marketplace that you are very familiar with right um so there's a buyer the buyer and the seller is being intermediated

29:30 by a middleman right and the original promise if you remember if you're old enough uh to remember

29:35 when these guys came in they said oh we'll save you money buyer and seller we'll help you a

29:41 first layer transaction by cutting out all middlemen. Except they became the biggest middlemen.

29:46 So big that they can now squeeze both sides of the market.

29:49 We see this with Uber, right?

29:50 Like Uber currently has a lot of scandals and lift too

29:52 that like they overcharge drivers

29:54 and basically take the most of the commission,

29:57 like most of the money, essentially.

29:58 Yeah.

29:59 You don't know if there is any transparency

30:01 and the tip is actually being given to the driver fully.

30:04 You don't know if the ride fare quoted to the to the rider is the same fare quoted to the driver

30:10 for the same ride. In India, people like drivers, if you get into an Uber, I hope this didn't happen

30:15 to you. But they'll ask you how much did you pay? How much is Uber telling you? Because they don't

30:20 Uber at all. So that was in these people sort of are built on the promise that we

30:25 cut out all the middlemen but trust us we'll run it fairly we'll do everything fairly this is there

30:31 is network effects which i'm sure everybody's familiar with so i won't harp on it but the

30:35 network effects is essentially the idea that one plus one instead of being two is maybe equal to

30:40 three because you know everybody's in the same network that extra differential that alpha from two to three that one is captured by uber right and that is why they are willing to subsidize

30:50 both riders and drivers initially to build up market share corner the market and then get to

30:55 a place where they can then start squeezing everybody yeah i saw last week tonight john

31:00 oliver just put this out there about uber eats and Grubhub and the food delivery guys, where the food delivery guys are ordering in very cheap, not paying riders who deliver a lot,

31:12 but still making losses. And their investors continue to give them money because once you

31:16 capture the market, it's large enough, it's lucrative enough that you have pricing power.

31:21 So that's the model really here, aggreg know, aggregation. That's consistent thing.

31:25 In a zero interest rate world,

31:27 you could keep doing that.

31:29 But if you really want to have an open,

31:31 you know, like a bazaar,

31:32 it's a very for market,

31:34 Persian Arabian word for markets,

31:36 which is where everybody has their own

31:38 sort of way of doing things.

31:39 An Uber ride is very standardized, right?

31:41 But if you want to have a bazaar,

31:42 what you want to do is that

31:43 instead of one such platform

31:45 or two such platforms,

31:46 the oligopoly of such platforms,

31:48 what if we had a multiplicity

31:50 of such platforms, right?

31:51 So you have many, many sort of platforms

31:55 who aggregate drivers

31:57 and many other platforms

31:59 who aggregate riders

32:00 and some platforms

32:01 who aggregate drivers and riders.

32:03 But can these platforms

32:04 talk to each other

32:05 such that if i go to let's say uh you know what's a good bike hailing app or like a bird scooter

32:11 can i go there but book a cab which is listed on over can i go to that app and book that instead

32:18 want to have that kind of an experience you need the ability for these two buyer side platforms and seller side

32:26 platforms to talk to each other yes right um this also helps because what you can do is you can

32:31 create a market that's specialized right so think about visa again we'll go back to the payment

32:37 example to simple and think of how it's an open protocol works in the visa example visa goes to

32:43 banks and says banks get me people who will

32:45 get cards right whom you can issue cards to so holders of cards and visa goes around acquiring

32:51 merchants right again via banks so some bank acquires a merchant and some other bank acquires

32:56 the customer and visa both these makes a matchmaking right so visa is the network or the

33:02 protocol here connecting buyer banks which could be people who

33:07 issue card issuing banks as they're called and seller banks which are the merchant banks right

33:12 the people who go get the merchants and visa collects a fee from the whole transaction and

33:17 distributes it to the buyer banks and to the seller banks right um but there's only one like

33:23 visa and mastercard then between themselves have an arrangement

33:26 that our machines should be able to talk to each other, which they may or may not include

33:29 American Express into. But imagine if there was one standard for all card machines.

33:34 So just to wrap this up, basically the way I can think of ONDC is like a standard how first I can discover items, services, whatever. And also I can agree

33:50 with you that I am now transacting it. So basically I show you my UPI payment, you confirm and now on

33:57 this protocol we have now paid and you owe me now this service essentially. The thing that was

34:02 You owe me now this service, essentially.

34:07 The thing that was really, really interesting to me here is,

34:14 for example, with UPI, there isn't one big app by the government.

34:16 There isn't every bank has their own app.

34:20 There is multiple people building UPI apps.

34:22 And the same is true with ONDC, right? So, for example, like in your example with Uber or like with Amazon,

34:25 there could be multiple people building specialized clients for the consumer

34:31 or clients for the provider, specialized use cases.

34:36 I could have like, I think you told me, like I saw this in Bangalore,

34:39 like they have like a proof of concept essentially,

34:43 which is like a TokTok Uber, which is completely built on ONDC.

34:47 Can you explain to me about this for a second?

34:49 Yeah.

34:50 Nama Yatri, which means my ride in the local language here.

34:55 Basically, you know, all that you're like an Uber is doing is matching a driver to a rider.

35:00 Right.

35:01 And today they take a share of the commission.

35:03 They're in the payment flow, etc.

35:04 to a rider right and today they take a share of the commission they're in the payment flow etc this app says hey look i am going to it goes to the auto drivers the tuk-tuk drivers and says

35:11 hey why don't i create an uber side app for you like like the driver side app for you where you

35:17 just come here and any ride that comes in you'll get a notification you can choose to accept or

35:22 reject it and for this i will only charge you a commission i mean i will charge you a daily fee like a fixed fee so 25 rupees a day

35:29 which is less than half a dollar a day right 30 cents a day to be on the app and unlimited number

35:34 of rides you can get right this is the model that's all they do they just get you rights

35:40 show your location tell you where to go but who's's giving the rides? So on one end, Nama Yathri has

35:45 its own app. They have a consumer

35:47 side app as well. But they are now

35:49 integrating with every other consumer app

35:51 in the country. So in

35:53 my payment app, I can now book

35:55 a ride. Because

35:57 Nama Yathri is an open network and it says, look, we're

35:59 trying to be a driver side network.

36:02 We're trying to be a driver side app.

36:04 Demand side app. Sorry, driver side app uh demand side uh sorry

36:05 supply side app so if we get the tuk-tuk riders on the app please somebody else go get the demand

36:11 we don't want to be in the cack by ltv business yes we don't want to be in the daily thing there's

36:16 a vr8 and the origin of the namayatri app by the way guess who made it it's a company called just

36:22 pay they actually made the first upi

36:25 app in the country so once you realize that look we are infrastructure builders what we are very

36:30 good it's making very very low cost transaction infrastructure now a transaction is a transaction

36:35 whether you're transacting money or you're passing messages about rides it's the same thing so there's

36:41 an under open protocol called beckon b-e-c-k-n and they've just basically

36:45 implemented beckon for a particular category called tuk-tuks right the part that's like the

36:53 the part that's crazy to me is like so um in this case for example like anybody can build like the

36:58 provider and consumer apps or like use cases you know but this also means if you think it's through

37:03 like this could mean um i purchase a product on that network essentially or marketplace whatever i think about it

37:11 and then the logistics would also come like a different use case of ondc which is like the

37:17 endpoint logistics which could be like the delivery company where the delivery company

37:22 might not even know the shop I'm buying from.

37:25 They might not even know, they might know nothing.

37:28 They're just like, hey, here's a package for you to send, you know.

37:31 And they might not.

37:33 So it's easy for us to imagine this like Amazon and UPS and this kind of stuff.

37:38 But like instead of saying like, hey, let's give one big company

37:42 like the majority of the economy, that industry in your

37:46 country, you know, which like, I think you have like a strong history against, you know. In that

37:52 case, it's much more like, no, let's establish infrastructure anybody can use and build

38:00 innovation on top of like whatever they need built on top of. And I think that's the most interesting thing here.

38:06 One question I have here is,

38:09 this is already a little bit hard to contextualize

38:12 for me for Percent. This is closer to something like

38:15 Google Shopping or something on Amazon.

38:17 This is closer to the pitch text I receive

38:20 for crypto pitches where I know it will never happen.

38:23 But this is real. This is already implemented implemented, like people using this, you know.

38:27 So your current state is like a few million transactions a month.

38:32 I think last count, three million transactions a month.

38:34 Still very early.

38:35 This is like this is like better phase for you, right?

38:37 This is like an early alpha.

38:40 What is like if you think this further, like what is the next iterations of this?

38:45 This is my last question that I'll leave you with.

38:48 From your point of view, what's the next things that will come?

38:51 If you think of this as layers, so we have identity, then we have payments, then we have

38:55 discoverability, then we have transaction.

38:59 What do you think is the next things?

39:00 What are you currently working on, for example?

39:02 So working on two things right now because AI is

39:05 all the rates are AI related. One of

39:07 them is a open compute

39:09 cloud. So we're saying

39:11 that all compute capacity at the end

39:13 of the day is compute capacity.

39:17 Sort of what

39:17 AWS builds the services it does, it tries

39:19 to lock you in, right? And the biggest

39:21 we get is from observability.

39:23 If you want a SaaS and you want to deploy easily on AWS or whatever, as a marketplace, you're paying 15% of commissions, right? And the biggest bit you can get is from observability. If you want a SaaS and you want to deploy it easily

39:26 on AWS or whatever, as a marketplace, you're paying

39:27 15% of commissions, right?

39:31 Storage is a similar thing.

39:32 We are paying aggresive costs. So we're saying

39:34 that one of the problems happening

39:35 is that once you have these very large,

39:38 big leaders in these markets,

39:39 they set business models for everybody

39:41 else, right?

39:43 While they're not a business business model like I was telling you

39:45 in the Namayatri versus Uber example

39:47 Uber used to take a commission 25% 30%

39:50 whatever

39:50 Namayatri said no hey I have a different business model

39:53 I am a software provider I am going to charge you for that software

39:56 it's a SaaS model

39:57 for ride hailing as opposed to a

39:59 commission model for ride hailing

40:01 do that I have to be light

40:03 I don't have a consumer side thing.

40:06 I'm not doing any marketing. I'm not doing any

40:08 you know,

40:09 CAC, right?

40:10 So therefore, because I forego

40:12 that, I have a good business model

40:14 and I'm cheap to drivers, so drivers can opt in.

40:17 This same idea applied

40:18 to compute. Why just AWS?

40:21 Anybody

40:22 who has some data center and

40:24 can build a data center and bring something online.

40:28 This is literally the promise of multiple pitch decks I've seen in the Web3 space.

40:33 This is crazy. So basically, the way how I can think of this is now it's like

40:38 protocols for service. And in this case, more and more real time is important. So I don't want to

40:44 service and in this case like more and more real time is important so like i don't want to five wait five minutes for the server to arrive like a tuk-tuk this is like instant right and then

40:49 the next logical thing here is uh if i understand correctly uh it's also like around um like

40:55 having clarity who this who this service is who is the company behind this and all this kind of stuff

41:00 right so the other thing that we now see that in india for the last 15 years we've been unbundling we've been doing a building block one thing and do it well so identity one building

41:09 block payment one for companies we have this tax network that had a company id and then

41:14 transactions and verified transactions and then data sharing protocol all that was there

41:19 now i think we're trying to do is re-bundle them into services that make sense right so one thing we're trying to

41:25 do in the ai world is essentially today um you know all our communication channels are very user

41:31 hostile a company sources can call you spam you call you multiple times robo call you ai call you

41:36 etc but you have very defenses caller id is broken so we are trying to have trust and privacy first

41:43 communication protocols so we are saying that if somebody calls you or somebody's trying to have trust and privacy first communication protocols so we are saying that

41:45 if somebody calls you or somebody's trying to call or reach you or text you or anything

41:49 why can't we have a meta protocol that on that that says hey this person is who they claim to be

41:55 right if they're asking you for money instead of simply paying them you can pay an escrow that

41:59 escrow will release things only in three days from now right so that you can make sure there's a

42:03 fraud or whatever you can dispute and get that money back right now we're trying to re-bundle this into an

42:09 AI first architecture right where this is me trust is broken so we're trying to sort of replace

42:14 whatsapp and phone calls and text with this overarching new sort of communication layer

42:21 to transport messages between that p2p and p2m um which we're trying

42:27 to like it's still coming i'm doing a launch event next month and the protocol will be launched next

42:32 month um but yeah it's basically we're trying to go after what whatsapp does and do it with

42:37 a lot more trust knowing who's calling you reaching you having a lot more control and consent over

42:42 who gets to reach you today if your phone

42:45 number leaks right andres if i just go to a website and put your phone number today you're

42:49 going to get harassed right and so very bad you're making this sound like a challenge for people in

42:54 the chat by the way like you're making it sound like teasing yeah but i wouldn't go so but like

43:01 think about the phone number is such a vulnerable id. Every time I give it, I cede control over who can then reach me or ask me.

43:09 I have zero control.

43:11 You can say call block or whatever, but it blocks your phone.

43:13 You can't receive other calls when you're getting a blocked call.

43:15 That communication infrastructure is really not built for the upcoming noisy AI age we'll be living in.

43:23 That's the next protocol we're going after.

43:24 This is amazing. the upcoming noisy AI age we'll be living in. That's the next protocol we're going after.

43:25 This is amazing.

43:30 So as somebody who lives in a country,

43:35 in a union, where if I want to invest,

43:40 I have to understand the legal entities of like 35,

43:42 like I don't know how many European,

43:44 like 30 plus countries, you know, I have to understand

43:46 all these nuances.

43:48 OK.

43:50 I can easily see in like five to 10 years, a future where on top of these kind of standards,

43:57 there will be like an investment protocol to invest into startups, into public infrastructure,

44:01 sorry, into pension funds, into all kinds of things, you know, there might be even like, it's more likely that like an AI that I verified know who

44:12 this is on resources I booked over this network will invest into a company, you know, this is

44:17 more likely to happen than currently that in the European Union, we will approach this kind of

44:23 problems like this. And this is like what was the most mind blowing to me,

44:26 because it's not just about the standardization.

44:27 It's also about the productization.

44:29 To think of a problem as an opportunity for product, you know,

44:34 to just like just give enough surface area of standardization,

44:38 plus APIs that people can use to solve the problems for the market directly.

44:43 And this was like the one thing that really impressed me.

44:45 This was like really mind blowing to me, actually.

44:48 Yeah, so we always call it public.

44:50 That's why we call it public infrastructure, private innovation.

44:53 So it doesn't matter that a private, say a philanthropic entity,

44:56 funded the public infrastructure.

44:58 The infrastructure should be public for anybody to come build a solution on top.

45:02 And therefore, we acknowledge that the context and

45:05 the solving that a private player does nobody else can right which is it's not government doing this

45:10 and government solving problems right because then you go back to socialism control authoritarianism

45:15 this is about laying the road so that people can start building malls start building gardens start

45:19 building a bowling lane start building everything else right yes building enough infrastructure that

45:24 other people can solve it yeah makes a lot of sense build a community around it build it in their

45:29 way build different business model look in the long run i'm just going to finish at this point

45:34 today if you go out to germany there's you might have a high-end shop who'll give you

45:38 no questions ask returns will give you best is we'll say you know what the customer's always

45:43 right and there must be like dollar stores or thrift stores they're like you know hey this is what it is buy it if

45:48 you break it if you don't like it too bad right we don't have that in the internet anymore on the

45:54 internet everything is uber or uber eats or like grubhub or whatever it's all good for us for

46:00 consumers but really screwing up the economy and screwing up the supply chain and centralizing and

46:04 following the middle what costco did or walmart did and all of that same thing is happening on

46:09 the internet we are trying to recreate variety diversity we're trying to call it unified

46:15 protocols right not uniform protocols because they're combining everybody into one thing and

46:20 letting them talk to each other reduce friction but not impose their opinion on how the market

46:26 should be. Yes. It's basically, if you

46:28 think of the internet like as in the ISO layers,

46:30 it's basically saying, why stop at this

46:32 number? Like, why stop at seven or eight? Like, just

46:34 go like a few layers higher, you know?

46:36 Makes complete sense.

46:38 Tanush, thanks so much for joining and like

46:39 giving us a crash course on this.

46:41 To me personally, this is absolutely mind-blowing.

46:44 Like, if I could invest in this as a startup,

46:47 like I would invest,

46:48 I also love that you are literally pitching

46:50 what you're currently working on, you know?

46:52 So you're basically like one of the founders

46:54 who will join in a minute, you know,

46:55 which I personally really love.

46:57 So thanks so much for your time

46:58 and like keep us in the loop.

47:00 Yes, and if anybody's coming to India,

47:02 feel free to reach out on panojaxpeopleplus.ai.

47:05 Thanks so much.

47:06 Bye bye.

47:07 Thank you.

47:09 Okie dokie.

47:13 So I know this is like not my typical kind of content, you know, because it's, you know,

47:20 it's I'm trying to get like experts here, know but to me this is like one of the most

47:26 impressive experiences not just like digital payments um you have to see in multiple countries

47:31 it's like actually thinking systematically about these problems as from a software pov which i

47:37 thought is a completely different approach to this kind of stuff i know similar concepts like from

47:42 estonia and i'm a big fan of those but on the scale in india i haven't seen so far and this is like something i wanted to share so um let's

47:50 get quickly back to the traditional programming so we're doing office hours and um i don't uh i

47:58 want to try something today okay i do not claim to be like an expert for india and we have like only indian founders today

48:06 and i also do not claim to be an expert for deep tech and we have at least one company where i had

48:12 like absolutely no idea what i should recommend them so i wanted to get like a friend of mine

48:16 to join and the friend is raul let me quickly check if Zoom works.

48:25 So Raoul, whenever you've got a moment, just join the Zoom link.

48:30 Yes, perfect.

48:32 Nope, that's not perfect.

48:35 And this is why it's a live show.

48:39 Cool.

48:41 Raoul will join in a second. Raoul is like an early stage investor in India. He

48:50 worked at Antler and a few other things. Invested first check into a lot of companies that I

48:55 highly respect and this is why I wanted to get him on. Especially an expert for aerospace Airspace and yes, here we are.

49:08 Yay.

49:10 Okay, it's working.

49:12 It's a live show.

49:13 This is a live show.

49:15 This is meant to be a little bit buggy.

49:20 Airspace and here we are.

49:21 Cool.

49:25 Mute the stream for a second because otherwise we have a little bit of a problem here cool Raul you're here work one second my computer's freaking out perfect um I will get

49:35 what we do today is uh I wanted to Raul to join um this is an experiment like you guys afterwards

49:41 let me know how this works okay um whenever i am like kind of like

49:45 i have no freaking idea what to say and you will notice by me just rambling okay i would love you

49:50 to join in okay uh before we do this like can you quickly introduce yourself because i i think i

49:55 butchered your explanation a bit super i no no i i think you did a far better job than i will but

50:01 thanks for having me here andres it's always fun to jam for folks on the stream I invest in deep technology businesses in India I've been in the Indian startup

50:11 ecosystem for the last decade I spent the first half of it building companies in fintech and

50:16 educational technology and then I decided to go tap into the inner child in me and try and build

50:21 a space company but I did the next best thing and started investing in

50:25 space companies so I've invested in about seven companies so far the first of these is a

50:29 hyperspectral imaging company called Pixel I this was the first investment I ever made and I've been

50:36 investing in the space of space now for almost six odd years before it was a cool idea to invest

50:43 in space been very fortunate to do that. I invest

50:46 in all sorts of deep tech from space to energy materials to battery systems, computational

50:53 systems, new kinds of semiconductors, chips across the spectrum. And there's a lot of interesting

50:58 stuff that's happening here. So I think, Anjus, what we discussed, I'll do a quick two minute

51:04 overview of some of the interesting things that are happening in India for our global audience to give you guys a sense of what is all possible here.

51:11 What are things that can happen as well?

51:13 And if people are looking to build in India, it's a good time to actually come to India and build.

51:19 This is an open invitation to everybody who's on this.

51:21 And people are in the country.

51:23 Definitely a great opportunity for people to build. So I quickly i i can share my screen right you can yeah

51:30 maybe just one second

51:36 and then afterwards we get our first founder and then afterwards we get get our first founder on. And then afterwards we get our first founder on.

51:47 Yes, we'll just do that.

51:50 Sorry to have...

51:52 Okay.

51:53 So...

51:54 Sure.

51:55 Super.

51:56 So can you folks see my screen?

52:13 So I think there's a lot that people know about India, a lot of people just heard about

52:18 the UPI boom in India about the digital public goods that are being built out. I focus a

52:22 lot more on the hardware side of things that are being built out in India.

52:25 And the story I want everybody to know globally

52:28 and even for founders in India

52:29 who are thinking of building out

52:30 is how this ecosystem is shaping up today.

52:32 So all of these companies that you see,

52:34 the ones from India might recognize

52:35 the ones who are not from India.

52:36 Please Google some of these names.

52:37 These are some of the most phenomenal companies

52:39 that have come out of India

52:40 from GraphQL systems to rocket launching systems to battery

52:48 management and battery power systems.

52:49 So what I want to very quickly give you guys a sense of is Indian founders have truly started

52:53 defying the norm.

52:55 The last 20 years of India's startup story was all focused on e-commerce.

52:59 We started early 2000 with just four companies.

53:02 And as of today, we have 23 e-commerce unicorns

53:05 that have come up in the last two decades. And there's a cyclical reason why these things happen.

53:10 And we believe the same thing is now going to start happening with hard and deep technology

53:14 companies in India, because all of these companies that I told you about earlier are spawning of

53:19 smaller and smaller companies. So the Indian space ecosystem has gone from four companies

53:24 back in 2017 to almost 200

53:26 new companies that have happened in the last seven years that are registered as startups and are

53:31 building out different solutions. So I just want to give you guys a quick overview of all the

53:35 opportunity sets that exist in India and why they exist in India. A large part of it is the rate in

53:42 entrepreneurial activity that shot up year on year, the number of scientists and research pools.

53:47 We have the third largest pool of PhDs that are graduating every year.

53:50 We've had close to $400 million that were just raised specifically for pure deep technology companies in India in 23.

53:58 It's growing roughly at a 40% CAGR.

54:01 Foreign VCs like Andreas are investing in India as well and coming to do this.

54:05 So it's a great place to come and build because of the ecosystem. And the largest is the ecosystem

54:09 that's been built out here in India, with primitives that are available in close to $12

54:13 billion of capital expenditure that's going to happen in the next decade and a half,

54:17 just to spur all of these things. And I think that's phenomenal that we're going to see. So

54:22 I want to tell you guys about how space has evolved. There are a lot of things to cover in this. But I think instead of making a space

54:28 lecture, I want to cover very quickly about how we can, how there's a broader trend of

54:34 people building for the world from India, not just software services that you were about to see,

54:40 but also about every kind of hardware that you can see so i want to quickly show you some

54:45 of the hardware things that we built out in india and what's going to happen so um the first thing

54:52 this is all sorry about this these were some other things that we wanted to cover but we're

54:55 running short on time so india opportunity um want to cover specifically space all of the products

55:00 that you're seeing are all indigenously built in India at the moment from

55:05 turbo pumps, turboprops, satellites, rocket launch systems, 3D printed rockets end to end,

55:11 all of this is being built out in India. Aerospace and unmanned systems, you will see some founders

55:16 today, we've gotten everything from high altitude pseudo satellites to agri platforms being built

55:22 out, where India has always been a use case first country

55:26 before building technology we find a reason to build that technology and build it out

55:30 and we've gone a little I would say cuckoo over aerospace and unmanned systems and how excited

55:36 we are about that in India dual use technologies the defense ecosystem has pushed over the last

55:43 three years to back close to 300 plus startups with grants that have been given out to build different kinds of import substitution products out of India.

55:54 India, I don't know for folks who know this, India is the largest importer of defense equipment in the world, globally.

56:00 They import 10% of all global defense equipment sale.

56:04 We import 10% of all global defense equipment and sale.

56:09 All of this is being indigenized and is being built out within the country as such,

56:11 leaving room for amazing companies to be built out.

56:14 Robotics, you've heard enough about it globally.

56:20 We've crossed the trough of disappointment and we've actually come down to real use cases that are being built out in India. And there are very unique situations that allow for something like this.

56:23 Quick commerce, for example, is an area that has managed to survive and thrive only in

56:28 India.

56:28 And that's creating newer kinds of warehouses, which require newer kinds of primitives and

56:32 robotics to be built out.

56:34 Applied materials is a huge area with things where India is investing billions of dollars.

56:39 We just set up the first fab facility based out of Gujarat.

56:42 There are two more planned and the entire ancillary ecosystem is being built around this another fun fact for people who don't know this the largest

56:49 number of chip designers in the world are indians energy systems another fun fact for you guys you

56:58 heard a lot of fun facts from tanuj 60 of the energy capacity that india is going to have by

57:04 2050 is yet to be built out.

57:06 And it's all going to be built out using renewable energy systems, using cutting edge technology.

57:11 We don't have the baggage of replacing existing systems.

57:14 There was somebody asking in the chat about how India is able to build these systems at scale so fast,

57:19 about passports in Germany and how it's a hit and miss and sometimes it's not.

57:23 It's because we have

57:31 um no Legacy code to work with we don't have the headache of an existing system that we've got to keep I always believe this is like a weird excuse uh like it's it's absurdly hard to design this

57:38 kind of stuff you know no matter if you have Legacy or not um sorry like I always like I

57:44 always hit a leapfrog thing you know I always hit a leapfrog thing, you know,

57:45 I always hit a leapfrog thing and I'm like, yeah, great.

57:47 Then let's also like leapfrog now into the thing we need in like 10 years.

57:51 You know what I mean?

57:51 Like if that's the only thing to do, but yeah, sorry.

57:55 No, absolutely.

57:56 I think that was the end of it.

57:57 Like the next slide was the thing I wanted to show just in the last two years,

58:01 the amount of capital going into it has grown by four X in many ways.

58:05 I think that's phenomenal.

58:07 So these,

58:07 this was just a sampling of companies,

58:09 but I think it'll be more relevant to have founders come up here.

58:13 Yes.

58:13 Let's do this.

58:14 Let's do this.

58:16 Sweet.

58:16 I'm sorry.

58:17 Just one point to what you said.

58:19 Since we're jamming on this.

58:20 Yeah.

58:21 I don't think it's legacy code.

58:23 That's a problem,

58:24 but legacy code comes with

58:25 legacy institutions and legacy incentives yes and something for that is the real problem code is easy

58:31 people are hard yes and especially like also like in europe we have like i mean i want to do like a

58:35 whole session on this like in europe we have a huge issue with fragmentation and incentives to

58:39 keep it fragmented you know and there is like we have estonia like estonia knows how to build all

58:45 of this you know yeah but we still like completely fragmented anyway before this gets political and

58:51 whatever you know um and by the way i wanted to like one show at one point about space tech

58:56 especially indian space tech because i think that's one of the least discussed extremely

59:00 popping industries in india um that i really want to like highlight at some point but

59:05 today the first one we have like three the first one is focusing primarily on Gen AI and built

59:11 like an absurdly ridiculous product for the stage he's in it's Kartik and I want to get him on board

59:16 and let's see let's do this Kartik yeah let's do this

59:25 Yeah, let's do this. So...

59:28 Hey, Kartik.

59:36 Do you hear me?

59:40 That's a yes, I assume, right?

59:44 Hey, Kartik, I assume, right?

59:46 Hey, Karthik, can you hear us?

59:48 Wake if you can.

59:49 Okay, okay, okay.

59:52 Hi, folks.

59:53 Hi, folks.

59:54 I was just listening to the Pongo.

59:55 Great insights, Rahul.

59:57 Cool. Hi, guys.

59:57 Thank you so much.

59:57 You guys are the ones building it out, man.

59:59 I'm just giving a comment.

01:00:01 So, Karthik, your company.

01:00:08 Yeah. I'm just giving a comment. So Kartik, your company, what I would love to do is if we, or differently put, what would be useful for you for today?

01:00:12 Let's start this way.

01:00:15 I would love to show you folks a demo of what

01:00:17 I am building here at Creator.

01:00:19 And I have some questions as well on, so you are in the US.

01:00:23 I want to crack the US GT, and you have cracked it. And I have some other questions regarding our ML strategy as well on you know so you are in the u.s i want to crack the u.s gt and you have

01:00:25 cracked it and i have some other questions regarding their rml strategy as well so yeah

01:00:29 we'd love to go to the call in that manner perfect let's do this yeah uh so hi folks

01:00:37 kartik this side i'm a engineer turned designer i have been working for the last four years

01:00:43 started in sales got into marketing then i'm a designer uh for the last four years, started in sales, got into marketing.

01:00:46 Then I'm a designer for the last three, four years, started creator eight months ago.

01:00:50 So when I was a designer, I always thought that the way we used to design, it's not the right way.

01:00:56 So, you know, whenever you get a PRD from your product manager, you have to draw some wireframes,

01:01:01 then build some designs on top of it. And then it goes back to your your product manager once again then that product manager and some senior product managers have some discussions

01:01:09 on it then you get back you know get back at it again then you rewrite these things and a month

01:01:14 passed by you have only tested one idea nothing has been built so i always thought that this is

01:01:19 not how the design should be done i have been trying to solve this problem through different

01:01:23 hacks but eight months ago i started a company called creator so with creator you can test out your

01:01:29 ideas quickly what used to take months right now take minutes can you show us a bit yeah sure so

01:01:36 just sharing my screen i hope it's visible yes perfect yeah beautiful yeah so uh this is how creators dashboard look like so we'll

01:01:49 just quickly get started with any idea that you folks want to build with and i think andreas we

01:01:54 had a call earlier as well so yeah yeah so yeah what's the idea like we should tell you any kind

01:02:00 of project yeah anything anything and this is this thing will design it. Okay, cool.

01:02:06 How long have you been working on this? Like eight months? What did you say?

01:02:10 I started, initiated the idea eight months ago, but real coding we have been doing for the last

01:02:14 five months only. Holy. Okay, cool. Any idea? Let's do this with the chat. Chat, if you have

01:02:21 a good idea, throw it in right now. We will, like, Raul, what's your

01:02:26 suggestion? We make a little bit of a pitch for the pitch condition. Raul, what's your

01:02:31 idea for a product that he should design?

01:02:33 Anything. Any is okay.

01:02:36 Okay. This is, okay, off the top of my head, and since I've been thinking a lot

01:02:40 about it, an accountability system app. Something to keep you accountable.

01:02:46 Okay.

01:02:47 What does this mean?

01:02:48 Like you make a promise

01:02:50 and then afterwards the app checks in

01:02:51 if you did it or what?

01:02:53 So you align towards a project

01:02:56 that you want to do

01:02:57 and it comes up with things,

01:03:00 motivates you,

01:03:01 ensures that you end up

01:03:02 getting to that end outcome.

01:03:03 It could be a fitness goal.

01:03:09 Think of it maybe, I don't want to call it a health tracker because i think it's too common i want to use something that's a lot more active and prompting you to do it i i have a yeah like i i

01:03:14 think that's cool we have a few other ones in the chat so we have um github for non-coders i don't

01:03:19 really know what that means and i don't want to see it this sounds scary i think i i think that

01:03:24 github for designers so probably okay okay the second second one is an email app by a guy who's actually building an email

01:03:30 app, which might be like, imagine now you design it like in five minutes and he gets like a heart

01:03:34 attack, you know? And number three is like a reading app. Okay. Let's do the email app. I

01:03:44 want to see the heart attack. Let's do the email app. I want to see the heart attack.

01:03:45 Let's do the email app.

01:03:47 Okay.

01:03:47 So let's make a modern email app.

01:03:49 Like I want team functionality and I want it to be fully like minimal UI and like very much like almost like a chat interface, you know, and I want, I want able that the team can also join.

01:04:03 And like, can we, can we, Can we just slow down a little bit?

01:04:05 I have to write it as well.

01:04:06 Sorry.

01:04:09 So yeah, and a modern email application, okay?

01:04:13 A modern email application where the whole team has access.

01:04:18 It's like built as a mobile app.

01:04:19 So basically I have a mobile app where it's somewhere between a CRM

01:04:23 and like an email app, I guess.

01:04:25 Okay.

01:04:26 And I really want to see this.

01:04:28 And we have like right now a founder in the chat who's building this.

01:04:31 If this thing can build it quicker than him, then he might have a problem.

01:04:36 Okay.

01:04:36 Let's double down on this.

01:04:38 So a modern email mobile application where the whole team has access to the mails.

01:04:42 Okay.

01:04:43 Anything else?

01:04:44 The idea is to basically a team inbox.

01:04:49 So like the team can have access to different,

01:04:54 like for customer care and all this kind of stuff.

01:04:58 You know, like think of Front,

01:04:59 but like as a mobile app, if you know Front.

01:05:01 I don't know.

01:05:02 Okay, perfect.

01:05:04 There should be..

01:05:13 OK, let's run this.

01:05:15 Yeah.

01:05:16 So this is just the objective of the prompt

01:05:20 that you have just written that our model has understood.

01:05:24 So chat, do you want

01:05:25 to edit something in it? And do you want some specifications here?

01:05:33 Andres, are you trying to speak something?

01:05:43 I'm sorry. This sounds great. Omer, let us know afterwards. I think this is pretty

01:05:49 much his whole functionality. Let's roll.

01:05:52 Can we have I know you have integration with other tools, but the ability to categorize

01:05:59 conversations into a CRM directly?

01:06:02 Oh, nice. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Let's go folks. Yeah. So, uh, the very

01:06:20 first screen that you are going to see here, it's called the feature screen. So when we

01:06:24 were, so earlier when we built this, so as soon as you entered the prompt you just need to

01:06:28 show the wireframes and then the user had to do a lot of work on top of it so it felt like a lot of

01:06:34 work on users and in the ai world that users don't want to do a lot of work user wants a lot of

01:06:39 control so those are two very different things let's say you've built a lot of ai tools that

01:06:44 allows users to edit the output that still

01:06:46 feels like work.

01:06:47 The screen that we are going to show you here is a screen where users can actually have

01:06:52 a look at this and select the features they want to build upon.

01:06:55 So from the one line prompt that we entered, these are the features that are more or less

01:07:00 understood and you can select any one of this feature and start building with it

01:07:05 one of the best things so this is rahul this is the your feature that you want to do but the best

01:07:10 thing about this is that you can you know edit the uh user flows here as well so see designs are

01:07:15 built from wireframes wireframes are built from user flows and these are user stories so you can

01:07:20 delete a feature as well so let's say you don't want to this you can delete the entire feature and let's say you want to build on any one feature select anyone and you start

01:07:28 building on it and the idea here is like basically that i step by step get more clarity on the

01:07:34 product like it's basically a structured best practice for product design is this correct

01:07:40 awesome yeah so yeah so i love uh yeah This is the best structure practice of product building.

01:07:46 Cool.

01:07:47 So, we pick one of them.

01:07:48 Let's pick the shared team inbox, right?

01:07:50 I think that's a good feature to start with.

01:07:52 Sure.

01:07:53 Sure.

01:07:54 So, these are the user stories that we're building on top of it.

01:07:57 Mm-hmm.

01:07:58 Works?

01:07:59 So, unified inbox.

01:08:00 Mm-hmm.

01:08:01 Yeah, it works. I think this is his full feature set.

01:08:06 Can we also have sort of an indicator to know who will have read it at the bottom?

01:08:12 Nice.

01:08:13 You have it so you know who will have viewed this. Like a Doc send kind of feature

01:08:20 in some ways.

01:08:37 I'm so happy I moved out of product management.

01:08:41 I would be very scared.

01:08:44 Yeah.

01:08:48 So as soon as you click on it,

01:08:52 so this is something that we call low-fidelity wireframes.

01:08:55 So again, this is the best practice of what product designers do.

01:08:59 So one of the very less modes that a product designer has in an entire company is that product designers understand

01:09:02 which component you have to be placed

01:09:05 where so let's say you're a product manager let's say you're a senior let's say you're a business

01:09:08 guy you would understand how important is that feature but a product designer will understand

01:09:13 is that let's say i have to show a filter so should i use chips to show a filter should i

01:09:18 use bottom sheet to show a filter or should i use pop-up to show a filter so on this screen

01:09:22 uh what we call low fidelity wireframes,

01:09:25 you will have a screen where you will have a set of screens based on your feature, where

01:09:31 you can decide which component you want to see and what's the reasoning behind it. So

01:09:36 whenever designers design, how do they generally design? Just I'll open up and share that with

01:09:42 you is that they actually have a look at any page so let's say

01:09:47 i'm a designer and i have a look at anything so let's say i want to build a car selling app okay

01:09:52 so i will have a i will have a look at the card the first card of it and what i'll say is that

01:09:57 okay there will be a car image there will be car price uh how new is the car so let's say it's a second-hand car, how many kilometers it has driven, you know, all these things.

01:10:08 So this is called IA, information architecture.

01:10:12 So if I have to, you know, just dumbledown of a job of a UI designer or product designer,

01:10:18 it does that how to rearrange this IAs in a manner is that the user interaction with it should be at an optimal way so this is

01:10:26 the lowest time job of a product designer right understood so yeah this is what we are trying to

01:10:31 do here just by providing you uh the understanding of purpose so this is the feature that you want

01:10:37 to build uh feature shared team inbox so the sub features of it is are accessing the shared team

01:10:43 inbox these are the user stories of it viewing details, emails and reading status, composing

01:10:49 and sending emails from the shared team inbox, assigning emails to members, managing

01:10:54 inbox with tags and labels and customizing mobile notifications.

01:10:58 So these are the all the sub flows that are going to be built in this feature.

01:11:01 Interesting. And these are all the screens around how we look like it.

01:11:05 So let's say accessing the shared team, because the first user flow,

01:11:08 and this is a full screen.

01:11:10 Okay.

01:11:10 So let's say you want to log in.

01:11:12 Okay.

01:11:12 How will the login section look like?

01:11:14 Okay.

01:11:14 Why is the login section there?

01:11:16 It's there to collect and authenticate the user.

01:11:18 What are the components that are going to be there?

01:11:21 And what is the purpose of those components?

01:11:23 So this feature is hated by designers

01:11:26 but loved by product guys because it reduces their dependency or designers so what you can do you can

01:11:33 delete any component from here you can delete an entire section and as you can see these are this

01:11:38 is how the wireframes are going to look like and you have a dumbed down version of it just for you

01:11:43 so you don't have to be dependent

01:11:45 on anyone and yeah so there are a couple of things that uh your users ask from us one other thing is

01:11:50 that right now you can only delete these sections but users are asking that hey can i get a chance

01:11:55 to add a component yeah yeah yeah yes so understand this is basically like the first step like your

01:12:01 ideas basically you go from like one liner to paragraph

01:12:06 to multiple features and then like uh break down the feature into user flows and then break those

01:12:12 into individual screens that you show first on like text level like as information architecture

01:12:17 like all of this is meant so that i can like step by step follow if it's like going the right path

01:12:22 and i don't have this weird typical experience of pressing a button and it's just not right. Is this correct?

01:12:27 Yeah. And also on the part that let's say earlier what we used to do, we used to

01:12:34 directly show the wireframes. So let's say you came on our platform, you entered, I want

01:12:38 to show an email box. What we used to do, we used to hit a chat GPT API and we used

01:12:42 to do something with the components and show it to users users will come back to us and say that hey this is not what I want you have this is now

01:12:50 additional work for me I would love to spend another 15-20 minutes on your platform but I

01:12:56 would want a guaranteed good output that okay I don't I don't have to then spend another two hours

01:13:01 working with it earlier what used to happen is that some people might think that okay this is a very elongated flow but users are loving it because they don't

01:13:09 have to do anything apart from it then. So once the output is there it's very close right now it's 60

01:13:14 70 percent of what they want they they pick up the things they they wanted from here and then they do

01:13:19 their work. Earlier what used to happen is that they used to then spend hours on it weeks on it

01:13:24 and eventually the retention used to drop off because we just used to give out the wireframes.

01:13:28 Right now we have built this structure, built this flow for the users to stay on the platform

01:13:32 and understand the depth of it. Yeah, this makes sense. I had this experience multiple times with

01:13:38 AI builders, basically. It's just not what you want, and you like reframe reframe reframe and then at some point you just like give up you know uh makes complete sense um and just a quick question

01:13:52 kartex you're building this um so all your prompts etc you're using the chat gpt api in the background

01:13:58 for this no no so there are multiple apis we have we are having an mom and we also have our own fine-tune model that is that is

01:14:06 based on llama 13 billion model so we have we are doing multiple things it's not just a gpt okay

01:14:13 it's a mixture of models so yeah yeah so different models are great at doing different things

01:14:19 uh chat gpt4 or the the gpt4 api is very good at reasoning, but the Lava 70 billion model is very good at

01:14:26 expanding on things very fast.

01:14:27 The GPT-4 API is very, very slow, but the Lava 70 billion one is very fast.

01:14:32 So we use some things for some tasks.

01:14:35 Makes sense.

01:14:36 Umair is like right now, he switched from panic to trying to compromise.

01:14:43 So his question currently is, is it possible

01:14:45 to also feed in existing status, like existing apps, existing... Can I start off where I'm

01:14:52 currently at already?

01:14:53 Yeah. So this place that you are currently staying here is add new features. This is

01:14:58 what Creators Mode is going to be. So this is the first time I'm telling telling this anyone publicly is that you can upload any of the designs that you have. And what we will do is that

01:15:10 we'll have a look at you for those designs. We'll show you that how the user flow that

01:15:15 look like she's and then you can start building on it. So let's say you can upload your existing

01:15:20 designs, you tell us that okay, I want to update this feature on this screen on my design and we'll do it for you. So I very well understood is that

01:15:29 not every time new apps are built, every time new features are going to be built, and

01:15:34 money is where money, the money in this product is going to be in the B2B side,

01:15:39 every time a product manager or product designer wants to build a new feature, they

01:15:42 want to they have to use creator. And for for creator to be used into these companies, creator has to understand

01:15:48 the current context. So this is the feature that we have built is that you upload any

01:15:52 Figma file of yours, we are testing with some of them. And you just move forward with it.

01:15:57 You can click here and extract those user flows. We'll show you the user flows will

01:16:01 ask what do you want to change? And then we'll show you the edited designs. Let's jump back to Omar's heart attack, where are we at?

01:16:08 70%.

01:16:09 Okay.

01:16:10 Yeah.

01:16:11 Yeah.

01:16:12 So it's right now rendering.

01:16:13 It might take another 30 to 40 seconds, it will be here.

01:16:17 No worries.

01:16:18 Yeah.

01:16:19 Yeah.

01:16:20 Yeah.

01:16:21 And so some of the other features that are one of our most allowed, you know, feature is this upload PRD and generate wireframes.

01:16:27 And PRD is what?

01:16:28 A product requirement document.

01:16:31 So it can be anything from a word document to a PDF to anything.

01:16:36 It's just that, let's say you are a product designer.

01:16:38 So generally how a company's function is that a product manager writes up a

01:16:42 PRD, shares it with the designer,

01:16:44 and the designer has to understand the user flows in the prd and build on top of it so this is what our most

01:16:49 requested features that designer had that told us that hey can you please do this for us is that

01:16:54 whenever a product manager gives us a prd we can upload it here and you can build us on top of it

01:16:59 so you can upload any document here some of the documents that are here like that. You can upload any document here,

01:17:06 and then we'll show you the designs based on that.

01:17:09 Super cool.

01:17:10 And yeah, the wireframes are here.

01:17:12 Oh, these are the wireframes?

01:17:12 Very interesting part.

01:17:13 Yeah, the very interesting part,

01:17:15 we show you four iterations of what you wanted to build.

01:17:18 Just four different types of user flows

01:17:20 of what you wanted to build.

01:17:21 Okay, so you-

01:17:22 Just in case you have options.

01:17:22 Yeah, yeah, so like Omer can choose

01:17:24 his kind of heart attack he's getting now. Okay, that makes sense. What's the iteration experience like?

01:17:29 There's usually multiple rounds of feedback or change requirements. How does it handle that?

01:17:34 Is it possible at any point that I go back and change earlier versions? Is there currently a

01:17:40 version history? Can I, for example, go off a tangent and then go back to an original version,

01:17:47 all this kind of stuff? Yeah, so that's in our beta phase. So if you go to beta.app.test.created.

01:17:54 Oh, you already built it? Okay.

01:17:56 Yeah, we have already built it. We are just testing it right now. And it will be live for

01:18:00 our user, I think probably by the end of next week. Dude, you're making other engineers look

01:18:03 bad. You're making me look bad, you know?

01:18:05 Like what the hell?

01:18:08 Okay, let's look into that. So like these are the low fidelity

01:18:10 wireframes you mentioned, right? Yeah.

01:18:11 This is the shared team inbox. So let me

01:18:14 just give you an entire rundown

01:18:16 of how these things look like. This is

01:18:17 the feature name. These are the

01:18:19 different user flows that are in the

01:18:21 feature. That first is the composing

01:18:23 and sending email. So this is very helpful for product manager as well is that you can you you get

01:18:29 very readily uh built out features and their user flows you can have a look at it and yeah so these

01:18:34 are the wireframe so best thing about it is that you can click here have a look at these three

01:18:40 screens and you can then understand okay how these three screens work like so the three screens here

01:18:45 the flow that is customized that customizing mobile notification for shared inbox so these

01:18:51 these three are one group that belongs to this specific uh user story user user flow yeah sorry

01:18:58 exactly exactly so user navigates the application by tapping on the menu user selects for

01:19:02 notification setting the app displays customize button so These are all the designs. I can share the link with you

01:19:08 with Andreas. This is a shareable link. I can share it in the chat as well. Anyone can

01:19:14 have a look. I'll just share it in the chat.

01:19:17 Nice.

01:19:18 Yeah. Okay. I have a chart. I have shared the link.

01:19:28 I will send it.

01:19:31 Let's throw it into the chat with the audience.

01:19:35 What's the worst thing that can happen?

01:19:37 Yeah.

01:19:40 I think the best is yet to show.

01:19:43 This is how a screen looks like.

01:19:45 And so one of the editing powers that your users are asking that,

01:19:48 hey, you have shown us a screen, but how can we edit it?

01:19:51 So there are multiple things that we have built on top of it.

01:19:53 So this is called intercomponent changing.

01:19:56 As I said, this is a component.

01:19:57 But what are the different types of intercomponents?

01:20:00 So let's say this is a multiple.

01:20:02 By the way, Karthik, not to be unpolite,

01:20:05 we're already overtiming a bit.

01:20:08 I'm starting to believe you have way more features

01:20:11 than we have time.

01:20:14 Can you, let's jump through the next one or two steps,

01:20:19 you know, and wait a minute, I can replace the items here?

01:20:23 Holy shit. Okay, cool.

01:20:24 Yeah, that's what I'm trying to say.

01:20:27 Okay, let's jump into the next steps you have afterwards.

01:20:34 Let's assume one of them is perfect, pick them and let's move to the next one.

01:20:37 And the other thing I would love to ask you is what kind of questions do you have?

01:20:42 What kind of challenges? And then we can do this in parallel while the thing is rendering sure sure uh so yeah i think uh let's

01:20:50 start with this so the final step with this so we have multiple editing options as well and you can

01:20:54 edit these screens to user flows and you can edit a single screen as well and yeah so you can generate

01:21:00 design so we click on generate designs so we have built three levels of user editing.

01:21:05 Once you look at the flow, you can edit it via flow level here as well.

01:21:09 You can edit the user flow.

01:21:10 You can go deep into the screen.

01:21:12 You can edit the screen just through text.

01:21:15 You can communicate with the screen.

01:21:17 And the third part is that you can replace component.

01:21:20 What I showed you.

01:21:21 This is cool.

01:21:22 I can basically on the lowframes, essentially change everything manually if

01:21:29 I'm not happy.

01:21:30 So, it's not just me explaining to the system.

01:21:32 I can literally go there and just do it on my own.

01:21:35 Yeah, you can do anything.

01:21:38 Sweet.

01:21:39 While this thing is rendering, what would be useful for you?

01:21:43 What kind of questions do you have? What can the chat help? What can me and Rahul help?

01:21:48 I would love to have some power users in the chat. As soon as you share the link, I think there were 10-20 people on the link.

01:21:57 I would love to chat with you folks. I can share my LinkedIn or Twitter. You can DM me there so that's the first thing apart from that uh i i i'm i'm a bit

01:22:05 icy on the gtm here is that because right now is it for designers is it for product managers because

01:22:11 what i'm seeing right now is that product managers are the power users of it designers are also using

01:22:16 it but where should i double down is my first question i think if any before before i answer

01:22:21 and before raul answers like what's your gut feeling? My gut feeling is that it's for the product managers.

01:22:27 But right now, product managers have a lot of things to do.

01:22:29 So they don't get enough time building the product.

01:22:33 I think once their tasks are automated by AI, managing the team, all those things,

01:22:39 I think product people will be able to do it.

01:22:42 So there won't be a role called product manager.

01:22:44 There will be a role called product builder we'll be talking to users and all the feature building in

01:22:49 the future will be done by ai that's my gutting i kind of agree um maybe not like on all the

01:22:54 feature building by the ai but like even right now um oh wow um so even even even right now like

01:23:03 the job of a product manager shouldn't be ceremony and it shouldn't be craft.

01:23:07 And like if you look at most teams, it's like mostly ceremony and craft.

01:23:11 Like they do project organizing.

01:23:13 They do like all these kind of like ceremonies.

01:23:17 You know, they write like a lot of documents and all this kind of stuff.

01:23:19 But like actually the job should be like really deeply understanding what the user needs and then just creating just enough stuff that other people can work off it you know i mean and that could be like a power tool

01:23:28 for that kind of job yeah uh marul what's your pub interesting i i think like i love how it's

01:23:39 it's fundamentally removing the need for what i would have as a product analyst as a manager

01:23:43 because this is what i would sort of want to say, what I give.

01:23:46 It's fundamentally worked like an AI agent for me.

01:23:51 Just the concern I have about this is that, and I think this is broadly around AI as well, which generates all of these outcomes, is that there's a certain learning of the craft that happens by literally writing these things down for

01:24:05 the first time and it's doing that that allows you to understand what to look for how to look for

01:24:12 break that down it's a it's a bit if you think about it as you have a math problem and you

01:24:17 struggle with it and you solve it over a period of time and the way your muscles build through that

01:24:22 versus you jump to the last page where there's a solution available and you go through the solution one so you solved the problem in

01:24:29 some ways but have you developed the muscle memory to do it and what so not being an ai doomer on

01:24:37 this here but what i'm trying to understand is then how does that skill set get built that does

01:24:43 it mean that an entrenched product manager who's

01:24:45 built that skill set is the one who's only going to keep using it?

01:24:48 You're hearing Raul as an ex-product manager currently panicking?

01:24:53 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

01:24:56 He's like, but this text is just automatically there. People didn't learn their lesson when they

01:25:02 do that. He's literally panicking right now no no because i was like i would have taken like three days to pull all of this

01:25:09 together and that that was like with a lot of diet coke okay so otherwise like under normal human

01:25:17 circumstances about five days under uh non-indian work conditions two weeks so not taking yeah yeah

01:25:23 under non-Indian work conditions two weeks. So not taking it.

01:25:24 Yeah.

01:25:25 Yeah.

01:25:25 So Kartik, let's do five more minutes and then wrap up,

01:25:29 because we're a little bit over timing already.

01:25:31 OK?

01:25:32 I have a little bit left.

01:25:33 No worries.

01:25:34 You're showing awesome stuff.

01:25:36 Let's quickly jump back to the current state of the rendering.

01:25:38 OK?

01:25:39 And if you have any other questions.

01:25:40 Yeah.

01:25:41 Yeah.

01:25:41 So I have showed you the design side.

01:25:43 Designs have been rendered.

01:25:44 I just stopped the screen share.

01:25:46 Can you quickly show it again?

01:25:48 For you, you have shown us like 500 times.

01:25:50 Like for you, this is normal.

01:25:51 I think it's pretty awesome for us to see.

01:25:53 Okay, no, I think I've closed that tab.

01:25:57 No, so it's here.

01:25:59 Perfect.

01:26:00 So for the user flow that we selected, this is the design that, so it's hanging a bit.

01:26:05 So I think a lot of people are here.

01:26:08 Yeah.

01:26:09 It's not getting zoomed in a bit, but yeah.

01:26:11 So this is how the designs are built.

01:26:13 I'm very sorry.

01:26:15 It's not getting zoomed in, but yeah, this is how the designs have been built.

01:26:19 So the user flow that we have selected.

01:26:21 Yeah.

01:26:21 Okay.

01:26:21 So the user flow that we selected, the designs that have been built okay so it's only now so the user flow that we selected the designs that

01:26:25 have been that have been built out of it so probably we are we are very early in test states

01:26:29 of design we are early in various states of understanding how the designs will look like

01:26:33 but yeah this is how the designs look like and you can just regenerate the designs as well you can go

01:26:39 back to wireframes and as soon as you go back to wireframes, you can have a look of which state the designs

01:26:46 have been built. Yeah. So, this is what Creator is. So, you can just select any user flow,

01:26:54 build designs on it. We build designs on this user flow. You can view designs of it.

01:26:58 Mm-hmm.

01:26:58 And yeah, this is what Creator is.

01:27:00 Pretty, pretty, pretty impressive.

01:27:03 So, one just last hidden feature that we have for our special users is prototypes.

01:27:08 Of course you do.

01:27:09 We have this live as well. So you can go on top of here. And we have live prototypes here as well.

01:27:15 So we have just shown these arrows right now for the sake of showing it. It's a very beta feature.

01:27:20 But you can so since we have all the user flow that you can see here so we built prototypes on

01:27:27 based of that density yeah yeah this is pretty insane um i i will not ask because i assume

01:27:34 there's like 80 features you didn't talk about yet right like there's like at least 80 features more

01:27:39 you know uh not 80 only only only only three more but yeah yeah. Fair enough. This is pretty impressive.

01:27:46 Thanks so much for showing this.

01:27:48 I will kind of wrap up now

01:27:50 just to make sure we have enough time for everybody else.

01:27:53 This is absolutely insane.

01:27:55 My understanding currently,

01:27:56 this is my last question on my end,

01:27:57 is your goal right now is not to generate the actual code,

01:28:01 but to get to the point that there's a design

01:28:03 and that there's clarity at the prototype. People have done the you the ui demos like multiple times all of

01:28:08 this kind of stuff so like people have clarity what to build and then the what's happening with

01:28:14 the code part so my my understanding is that ultimately in 10 years there will be no design

01:28:21 or probably in 15 years there'll be no design left because right now the cost of producing code is so high is that let's say if we get into code,

01:28:29 then the cost of prototyping, it will be so high is that whenever you want to change the

01:28:33 code, you have to have a very highly skilled engineer right now.

01:28:36 Why we are not going deep into code is that why we are still sticking to prototypes is

01:28:41 that you have an idea, you have an existing product build.

01:28:43 You can test out anything

01:28:45 on top of that you can just go and that okay i want to try this new feature i want to 10 10 try

01:28:50 10 type of different user flows and a prototype is something that is very cheaply available right now

01:28:55 is that you don't need a you don't need a lot of computing power to build prototypes

01:28:59 right now is that it's very cheap for us but let's as soon as we get into code right now

01:29:04 it's a whole different ball game so we'll yeah yes we will get into code uh and i think when we get into code it will be

01:29:10 unimaginable because the code that we will generate because we have a lot of context of

01:29:14 designs wireframes user flows features you know context of why this button is there i think we'll

01:29:20 have will generate damn good code but right now we don't want to get into code because the cost

01:29:24 of doing that is so high and i think the the vision is not there to generate code yet. That's what

01:29:30 my understanding of it right now is. But yeah, we'll definitely get into code. This is a very

01:29:34 clear sign. Another way to think about this is like almost everybody is right now focusing on

01:29:41 image to code, right? And so you might, in the end, have one commodity API.

01:29:48 You just throw it against.

01:29:50 And then Devin or whoever is just building for you,

01:29:53 you are outsourcing it to Devin.

01:29:55 You know what I mean?

01:29:56 Yeah.

01:29:57 Yeah.

01:29:58 Yeah, that's cool.

01:29:59 Awesome.

01:29:59 Kartik, thanks so much for showing.

01:30:02 I think I agree with the chat here.

01:30:03 Spectacular demo, very impressive, multiple wows.

01:30:06 Like, absolutely awesome.

01:30:07 Thanks so much for joining.

01:30:09 And like, folks, try out his stuff.

01:30:12 He promised that he will accept everybody

01:30:14 who asks for early access.

01:30:16 Yeah, thank you so much, Andreas.

01:30:18 Thank you so much, Rahul.

01:30:19 Great chatting with you folks.

01:30:20 Have a good day.

01:30:21 Bye bye.

01:30:22 This was phenomenal, Karthik.

01:30:23 Thank you.

01:30:24 Thank you so much

01:30:25 so crazy i'm gonna walk away and decompress for some time just

01:30:34 this is this is the one thing that freaks me out about india right like when i talk to indian

01:30:41 founders in pre-seat you know i'm like are you messing with

01:30:46 me like he's pre-seed i don't know if he raised you know like i think he might have raised one

01:30:51 round maybe i really didn't get to ask you know but he's on pre-seed level you know i mean like

01:30:56 on pre-seed level normally when i talk to founders in the west it's kind of like yeah we have a pitch

01:31:01 deck and it's half done you know i mean i i? I have a tool to make a pitch deck now.

01:31:06 I have a tool.

01:31:07 Yeah, exactly.

01:31:09 And if you remember, this is what I was telling you about Indian founders, right?

01:31:12 It's blown me away by the level of ambition that I've had the opportunity to see.

01:31:18 Like it truly makes me wonder what I was doing with my life 10 years ago.

01:31:21 Dude.

01:31:22 Like it's not just this product.

01:31:24 If I'm not wrong, he just graduated, right? A year ago or he's's not just this product um he's if i'm not

01:31:25 wrong he just graduated right a year ago or he's something like this yeah yeah this is insane yeah

01:31:30 um cool um so this was kartik uh next one is sri of arctas uh let's get sri on board and

01:31:38 you two already know each other so that's fun

01:31:43 hey sri

01:31:44 that's fun hey shri uh hello you guys can hear me yes how are you doing yeah let's go

01:31:51 um yeah so for quick context like first of all thanks for all the founders joining it's like

01:31:58 literally 11 p.m right now okay in india like in bangalore um and like everywhere else in india

01:32:03 um this is insane like for you this is a normal working time or not

01:32:07 yeah i mean i'm a student so i keep working all the time okay cool shree uh tell us a bit

01:32:16 yourself and uh also like tell us what would be useful for you like what you want to get out of

01:32:20 this what you want to do in this uh like let's let's keep it like 15 minutes 20 minutes because otherwise we're like just over stretching everything yeah yeah yeah cool uh i'll basically

01:32:31 say a bit about myself my background and then what i'm building and what i would ask like the

01:32:38 question is since that sector i'm building which is basically defense and i'm building, which is basically defense, and I'm building a business for government,

01:32:45 basically. How do we approach it? And like, just in general, how do we, if there's any fresh ideas,

01:32:51 which I can get any new perspectives or insights, which you guys can see?

01:32:55 Yes. And this is the main reason I wanted Raul on board, because I have no freaking idea how to sell

01:33:00 to the Indian government. And I also don't know any other student who is like, I mean, that's

01:33:04 actually not true. I know multiple students, they're all based in India,

01:33:06 who are like, hey, let's build defense tech for the government. So anyway, awesome. Sri,

01:33:13 like Arctis, what is Arctis? Yes. So Arctis Aerospace is the company I'm building.

01:33:20 At Arctis, we are building fighter jets that can fly at 35,000 feet and basically eliminate the need for fighter pilots in the future.

01:33:31 You're building autonomous fighter jets?

01:33:33 Yes, autonomous fighter jets.

01:33:35 Okay, so you like like a simple challenge. Is this what I understand?

01:33:40 Like you want something simple, you want like a simple little startup, like the simple little startup you picked is like autonomous fighter jets, right?

01:33:49 I mean, the idea didn't come directly. It was a series of iterations.

01:33:55 Awesome.

01:33:56 I had actually started out with targeting the medical industry, like basically tried to build a zip line for India.

01:34:03 Because this was a personal problem which I had

01:34:05 my mom has cancer so to get medications to that she had like we had to book medical like medicines

01:34:13 two weeks in advance to get to a city so if we missed it by a single day that would be an issue

01:34:20 and we would miss our appointment so this happened with my mother a lot of times.

01:34:26 And then I was like, this is the sector I want to disrupt.

01:34:29 This is a personal problem for me.

01:34:30 I like drones.

01:34:32 Let's solve it with drones.

01:34:34 And when I dove headfirst into that,

01:34:37 I realized it's a very, you know,

01:34:40 messed up market, decentralized market, to be honest.

01:34:43 Too much of disruption, which

01:34:46 the hospitals were even hesitant to even try it out, like even think about it as a solution.

01:34:51 So a lot of like feedback, which I got was that, how would we know how to fly a drone?

01:34:58 Like drone as a concept is very alien for them.

01:35:02 It's too futuristic for them, despite having the technology. So,

01:35:07 and given the expertise and skill set of the people involved in the industry, it was very

01:35:13 hard to penetrate. So, from there, I started looking at other industries that I wanted

01:35:18 to, like I am right now, finally a student at IIT Madras. And I have been working on drones basically my entire college life.

01:35:27 I was part of the aero club here.

01:35:30 And post-COVID, the aero modeling culture had died in the campus.

01:35:34 Me and a couple of my friends, we rebuilt that from ground up,

01:35:39 learned all of the technology, contacted our seniors,

01:35:41 and learned how drones, UAVs and all of these were built.

01:35:46 So for those people who don't know, so IIT, like as we discussed before in Institute of

01:35:52 Technology, extremely high bar for acceptance.

01:35:55 Like it's really hard to get in.

01:35:58 Extremely good research, like almost in every field I've seen.

01:36:00 IIT Madras is known to be one of the best ones, especially when it comes to hardware

01:36:03 and deep tech and especially aerospace and this kind of stuff. So you're literally like at the

01:36:07 epicenter of India for this kind of stuff is my understanding. What I also like is you were like,

01:36:12 you know what, we need drones and the government doesn't understand how to fly drones.

01:36:19 So you know what, they're second best college in, okay, I'm sorry.

01:36:25 There's like an ongoing competition.

01:36:27 I didn't know about this.

01:36:27 I'm very sorry.

01:36:30 So you're like, okay, the government doesn't understand drones well enough

01:36:33 and it's too sci-fi for them.

01:36:35 So let's just add AI to it and like make them autonomous.

01:36:38 Great.

01:36:39 That's like not, that's not much more sci-fi.

01:36:42 Love it.

01:36:42 Do you have something you can already show?

01:36:44 Like, do you have like demo screenshots? Do you have something you can already show? Do you have demos, screenshots?

01:36:46 Do you have a fighter chat in your room or something?

01:36:52 Basically, I do have an RC model here,

01:36:55 but that is not what it is.

01:36:56 The thing is, I had come to my room

01:36:58 and I realized that it was today.

01:37:00 So I have shown Rahul, by the way,

01:37:02 the prototype which I have here.

01:37:04 So if you have photos of that, do you want to pull that up?

01:37:07 So the first time I met Shripurna was at the IIT Madras campus and we met at

01:37:14 about nine in the night.

01:37:16 And then I finally stumbled back to my room at five o'clock in the morning.

01:37:22 In the morning. Okay.

01:37:23 Yes. Yes. we met at 9pm

01:37:25 21

01:37:26 and

01:37:27 oh 500 hours

01:37:28 I was back

01:37:29 and then

01:37:29 the next morning

01:37:30 8.30 I had to be

01:37:31 back up again

01:37:32 for a panel

01:37:32 never regretted

01:37:34 a bit of it

01:37:35 Shree that's awesome

01:37:36 I just

01:37:38 I don't know

01:37:38 the renders of this

01:37:40 and I think

01:37:40 what would be

01:37:41 really helpful

01:37:42 from everyone

01:37:43 who's in

01:37:43 the audience as such is to hear

01:37:46 about possibly esoteric use cases that you've seen for drones outside of the standard ones that we

01:37:53 hear about so what shripurna has specifically been looking at is what are different kinds of areas

01:37:59 that we can apply aerial systems on so just thinking pure first principles yeah oh that's there you can see this

01:38:05 yeah so this is what we have built i have a second prototype as well so like basically i am interested

01:38:13 in like if you look at india what range so this is what range how far how long did it take you

01:38:19 okay i'll give the specifications right now yeah this. This drone, you can see right here. This can fly at 5,000 feet.

01:38:26 That is the cruising altitude for this.

01:38:28 By the way, this is a 1-4 scale down prototype.

01:38:32 So the final prototype of ours is going to be four times bigger.

01:38:35 Okay.

01:38:36 This can fly at 5,000 feet.

01:38:38 Maximum flight ceiling is 8,000 feet.

01:38:41 Flies at 200 kilometers per hour.

01:38:44 Has an endurance of two hours. So basically a range, one-way range

01:38:48 of 400 km, has a payload capacity of 1 kg

01:38:52 and right now it's electric, but we are also,

01:38:55 we have also got an IC engine right now, a small-scale

01:39:00 IC engine and we are trying to see how much range, how much can you optimize

01:39:04 it for IC engine, internal combustion engine.

01:39:07 Yeah.

01:39:08 So these are the specifications of all the drone we have right now.

01:39:13 I, let me pull up some other stuff.

01:39:16 Where is it?

01:39:17 And meanwhile, I will ask Rolak a quick question.

01:39:20 Like how many, like I have met like a bunch of drone startups in India.

01:39:23 Like how many, like how many drone startups do you currently see?

01:39:27 Like what's there?

01:39:28 It feels like a lot right now.

01:39:30 Is this correct?

01:39:31 There's easily like a hundred plus.

01:39:35 Yeah.

01:39:37 I would say maybe a hundred plus just on the IIT Madras campus.

01:39:41 But quite easily a hundred plus startups because again this this goes back

01:39:47 to Andreas what we were talking about the democratization of primitives that are available

01:39:50 like she built all of this off of a 3d printer and applies and does that and he's while finishing up

01:39:59 his undergrad studies at one of the most competitive institutions to graduate from.

01:40:07 And that, that is truly what speaks for that. If you have ambition and baseline prototypes,

01:40:13 baseline primitives, there's so much that gets built.

01:40:16 So this is another fun fact.

01:40:18 Shri Putna was awarded as the best entrepreneur at IIT Delhi from his graduating

01:40:23 batch. Very batch I think just

01:40:25 this was a few weeks ago

01:40:27 yeah eSummit yes

01:40:29 I've been to eSummit in

01:40:32 Mumbai we also had our director

01:40:34 unveil the product as well like for the first

01:40:36 time I was showing it out after working

01:40:38 on it

01:40:38 that's awesome what kind of

01:40:42 like challenges do you have like how can

01:40:44 we help as I mentioned like before alternative cases. Anything else that would be useful?

01:40:51 Basically, right now, if you look at the defence forces, it's quite like everyone has every sector in the defence force has its own use case.

01:41:02 And it's quite scattered, the need for them them the quantitative requirement with the defense forces have so if there was a way

01:41:09 you can get to know all of these are like find a way to crack and like this is a platform

01:41:14 I have built by the way like the use cases for this can be multiple at this scale itself

01:41:20 I think I can commercialize this and actually start making revenue. But that was not the end goal I had

01:41:26 because I want to build something that flies at 35,000 feet.

01:41:29 Basically, that's a moonshot for me.

01:41:34 Now, this also has the capability of I can commercialize it.

01:41:39 I also want to see how I can work with the military

01:41:42 in building that moonshot goal with the defense forces how

01:41:45 do we go about that and also opportunities to like at other places in other countries as well

01:41:51 that maybe that is something I'm not looking at yeah no no please so something that might be

01:41:57 interesting andres and if we can get this from some of the audiences um stuff that's happening

01:42:02 within nato for systems like what are parallels,

01:42:05 what are people thinking about what's getting built?

01:42:07 Because one other way to think about outside of ground up is parallels from what gets built

01:42:12 elsewhere.

01:42:13 Any insights on that from other markets would be very helpful as well.

01:42:17 I, so I don't know how many war or defense tech experts are in my audience, to be very

01:42:24 honest. war or defense tech experts are in my audience to be very honest I think I think if hell divers

01:42:28 count a few if if not then not that many the the biggest thing that I have seen recently a lot is

01:42:35 like drones in the night space like I have seen an amazing company in IISC called Thalia, if I remember correctly, Thalia Aerospace.

01:42:46 So like basically being able to operate in completely denied space,

01:42:50 like jamming and everything included.

01:42:52 So fully autonomous, purely on vision, this kind of stuff, you know,

01:42:56 that's like a big topic.

01:42:57 And the other big topic I've seen is like long range,

01:43:00 because we think of drones as something that's like in the immediate vicinity,

01:43:05 which isn't really the truth, for example, how it's used in the Ukraine.

01:43:08 I talked to like a founder who is literally iterating prototypes at the border,

01:43:13 like at the red line, like directly next to the troops, you know.

01:43:18 And one of his biggest insights is like the main use case that actually works for them

01:43:22 is going far distance to find

01:43:25 artillery and then like have very very clear like positioning for those you know um but I'm

01:43:32 definitely not like a defense tech neither investor nor expert yeah so air OPs I think

01:43:38 Andreas what you're describing is um originally used to be the first use of aircraft in the military. So before Air Force, about some military history,

01:43:47 is the army used to use aircrafts to identify forward positions

01:43:52 where artillery could bomb.

01:43:55 So there used to be, you have observation posts.

01:43:57 So you have your artillery gun and you would have somebody further up ahead

01:44:00 identifying where the artillery gun needs to aim.

01:44:02 Then they said, you know what, we can put this person,

01:44:04 instead of on top of a cliff, can put it put them into a aircraft and that was actually the

01:44:09 first usage of aircrafts in warfare and that is what is now called an air op uh air observation

01:44:17 post which is what i believe your friend was also talking about i think it was also like one of the

01:44:22 first use cases of the word computing itself um like this is where like the first use case, as far as I remember, like I learned about

01:44:29 this at one point. Cool. Sri, any last other question? We're running a little bit like late

01:44:36 today. So I would wrap it up. Like after one more question and we wrap up. Questions. I mean,

01:44:43 if you have any, like, I just want to extend perspective

01:44:46 so I joined this deal that I can get.

01:44:48 How can the audience be useful to you?

01:44:49 Like, what would be useful for you?

01:44:53 Basically, spread the word that we exist,

01:44:56 that we're building this technology.

01:44:58 And like, other than that,

01:45:02 I mean, I'm working on my,

01:45:04 I'm also working with the team as well, but trying to find a good founding

01:45:08 team and build this as a company.

01:45:10 Awesome.

01:45:11 If there's any people who are interested in this, who wants to work with me, you can reach

01:45:14 out to me.

01:45:15 You can find me on Twitter, Instagram, LinkedIn, any place.

01:45:18 Why don't you put in your details in the chat?

01:45:21 I think this is good practice for everyone who's here as well.

01:45:23 So you can reach out.

01:45:24 Like, throw them afterwards on rfc.to like where the stream is running and then

01:45:29 like people can contact you uh sri thanks so much for your time this was awesome yeah yeah by the

01:45:33 way i want to show you guys one thing which i built out of my dorm room okay so i don't know

01:45:37 how legal it is to show it on stream but let's not oh no

01:45:53 yeah the answer is no okay cool i think each one of his team continues to get more unhinged

01:45:59 seriously this is like why i'm always like happy to like i shouldn't be investing in defense tech you know like there's people crazier than me uh

01:46:06 people crazy than me uh shree thanks so much for your time bye bye yeah thank you um cool yeah this was crazy um like most competitive uh university uh most like one

01:46:20 of the most competitive degrees uh voted like number one student or something like that on the e-summit

01:46:27 which is like the conference for them you know and works on drones for the government on it as like

01:46:36 as a little weekend startup

01:46:44 Cool. Next one.

01:46:45 We have actually two founders, but I think only one of them can join.

01:46:50 Let me quickly ask.

01:46:52 Let's get Sabhyasachi.

01:46:55 Sabhyasachi

01:47:06 sorry

01:47:07 so this is

01:47:10 famous Indian clothing designers

01:47:12 sabhyasachi

01:47:14 okay

01:47:14 does your camera work

01:47:18 hello hi can you hear me

01:47:20 yes we hear you yeah my camera works

01:47:22 one second is it is it is it not turned on one second

01:47:24 just let me check

01:47:24 all right yeah hello how are you good sorry for the delay hi hi hi that's that's

01:47:36 all right that's all right that's okay um all right so yep is arushi joining no actually she So, yep. Is Arusha joining? No, actually, she's in another meeting.

01:47:46 So she won't be able to join in.

01:47:49 Okay, yeah, this is...

01:47:50 She's in a physical meeting.

01:47:51 I'm sorry?

01:47:52 This is due to delay.

01:47:55 Andres, are you seeing the work ethic?

01:47:56 It's 11.30 p.m.

01:47:58 True.

01:47:59 On Friday evening.

01:48:01 And both the founders are busy with two separate meetings.

01:48:04 Guys, hats off.

01:48:06 Thank you so much. Thank you so much.

01:48:07 Thank you so much, Rahul.

01:48:08 Really, really appreciate it.

01:48:09 Cool.

01:48:09 So we don't have your CTO this time on?

01:48:14 We don't.

01:48:15 Okay, cool.

01:48:17 What would be useful for you for this call?

01:48:20 What's a good use of your time?

01:48:21 We want to obviously hear what you're doing.

01:48:23 Anything else that would be a good use of your time we want to obviously hear what you're doing anything else that would be good use of your time um sure so one of the things that uh

01:48:30 we think is sort of worth discussing is the is the kind of uh things that could come out of

01:48:37 uh as a result of metal 3d printing or a or compact metal 3d printing or us or a you know

01:48:42 compact metal 3D printing or a

01:48:43 small format 3D printing.

01:48:46 When I say small, I'm not referring

01:48:48 to the size of part

01:48:50 that can be printed, but I'm referring to the size of

01:48:52 the printer. Because generally

01:48:54 when you look at metal 3D printers,

01:48:56 which are these laser

01:48:58 bed powder fusion machines,

01:48:59 they're pretty large.

01:49:02 Whereas when you

01:49:04 look at a FFF

01:49:06 or a fused filament fabrication sort of system,

01:49:09 it's completely different.

01:49:10 It's much more compact.

01:49:11 They can more or less, you know,

01:49:13 there is some difference in the part.

01:49:15 We're jumping a bit far.

01:49:18 Let's look at this.

01:49:19 Can you quickly screen share

01:49:20 and like show what you're working on?

01:49:21 Because I think the context

01:49:23 that you're actually working on a 3D printer for metal is like really interesting right now for people to understand

01:49:28 your question right so so uh is it is it okay if i just uh give a quick brief about what we are

01:49:35 doing who we are what exactly are we targeting uh and what's our goal would that be very helpful

01:49:41 like a small yeah can you screen share something?

01:49:45 Sure.

01:49:46 I could share my screen and show you the, you know, one second.

01:49:52 Sharing screen.

01:49:55 One second.

01:49:57 I'm really sorry.

01:49:58 In this, okay, one second.

01:50:00 We're very used to using G meet,, so this is a bit different than that.

01:50:07 Awesome. Is this visible to you?

01:50:10 This is actually a screenshot of the software that we are building.

01:50:15 It's called Thinkware.

01:50:17 So at Thinkmetal, we offer Compact Metal 3D Printer,

01:50:21 which has the capacity of 3D printing in metal right at your desk

01:50:28 in no time using our patent pending process, right?

01:50:33 And typically what, so Arushi and I, we both have known each other for the past six odd

01:50:40 years now.

01:50:41 We started together and we met when we were pursuing a bachelor's

01:50:45 in mechanical engineering and were a part of this SpaceX Hyperloop pod competition.

01:50:50 And then we went on to work together in a startup as well, which later we quit and then

01:50:56 started ThinkMetal.

01:50:58 And the sole reason for that is because during our previous roles, we were at the forefront of procuring manufactured parts and test them.

01:51:09 So in the process of the same, we've spent a lot of time

01:51:13 roaming around industrial estates.

01:51:17 And that's when we realized that manufacturing is actually,

01:51:20 especially manufacturing of tools and prototypes,

01:51:23 is one, very tedious and time-consuming,

01:51:25 and second, it's very expensive. And that's when it clicked to us.

01:51:29 Why? Why can't we print metals like we can print plastics? Right.

01:51:34 And that's how Think Metal was born.

01:51:36 So typically when you're looking at tooling and prototyping, it takes anywhere between two to four weeks to sort of make a tool.

01:51:44 It takes anywhere between two to four weeks to sort of make a tool, right?

01:51:53 So by tool, I mean a jig, a fixture, a mold, a die, press break tool, punch die, so on and so forth, right? So typically, these are made out of hard materials, hard metals, right?

01:51:57 Hard steels, you know, hardened steels or tool steels or, you know, martensitic steels, basically.

01:52:04 It's difficult to cut through

01:52:06 so that's why it takes the time, right?

01:52:07 Subtractive manufacturing. So it's much easier to

01:52:09 sort of do or manufacture them

01:52:11 additively. So what

01:52:13 we wanted to do is we wanted to bring

01:52:15 down that time from 2 to 4 weeks

01:52:17 to literally 2 days, right?

01:52:20 And we also wanted to bring down

01:52:21 the cost of manufacturing

01:52:24 and the turnaround time, right bring down the cost of manufacturing and the turnaround time.

01:52:26 For the interest of time, this is a software which interacts with the hardware that you can see right now.

01:52:31 Just behind me, this is one of the ThinkMetal systems.

01:52:35 This is an ugly prototype, as you can see.

01:52:38 And so the way it works is through this software.

01:52:47 You import a file, once you've imported a file, you select the material, and once you've selected the material, you just hit print,

01:52:52 right? So that's how easy it is. And that's how, you know, that's how intuitive the entire

01:52:59 experience is. Okay, so for Sorry. Sorry to interrupt you.

01:53:07 That's OK.

01:53:07 Before this gets like, because I see that you're super excited.

01:53:10 I love that.

01:53:11 But we want to make sure it's not just like a pitch,

01:53:13 basically.

01:53:15 Basically, it's like 3D printing for metal.

01:53:17 OK.

01:53:19 What would be useful for you for this call?

01:53:21 What would be a good use of your time?

01:53:26 I'm sorry, could you come again, Andreas?

01:53:27 What questions do you have?

01:53:28 What challenges do you have?

01:53:29 And can you stop screen sharing for a second?

01:53:33 I actually don't know how to stop you screen sharing.

01:53:35 One second.

01:53:36 Perfect.

01:53:37 Thank you.

01:53:38 So sure.

01:53:40 So you would like to know the challenges that we have, right?

01:53:42 Yeah.

01:53:43 So the first and foremost challenge is that this has not been done before, right?

01:53:53 So basically, the way metals are joined is via heat, right?

01:54:00 And here we print metal at around 250 degrees Celsius.

01:54:07 And I'm talking about stainless steel.

01:54:08 I have a couple of parts with me if you'd like to see.

01:54:11 So these are metal parts.

01:54:14 I don't know if it is visible to you.

01:54:15 These are metal parts, sintered metal parts.

01:54:19 I hope you can hear them.

01:54:21 These are metal parts that were printed on our system, right?

01:54:26 On Think Metal systems.

01:54:27 There are other parts as well.

01:54:29 This is another impeller.

01:54:30 This is, however, a green part.

01:54:32 Another sintered part.

01:54:33 This is used for, you know, bending sheets, bending sheet metal, right?

01:54:38 And then you have another spur gear, right?

01:54:41 This is typically used in, you uh lates uh you know turning machines

01:54:45 basically right uh i i just one second i think can you actually move the camera for a second so we

01:54:53 see the the machine yep sure right awesome uh quick quick question um you said like this hasn't

01:55:02 been done before but like 3d metal printing is a thing, right? Or not?

01:55:07 It is a thing, but it's done using lasers, right? And these are very costly setups, right?

01:55:14 You're looking at around, you know, our ticket price of anywhere between 800, starting from

01:55:18 $800,000, right? So that's how expensive these machines are. Whereas when we're talking about

01:55:25 right so that's how expensive these machines are whereas when we're talking about uh you know think metal uno uh the thing metal systems uh our listing price is one tenth of that so uh the

01:55:32 listing price of this is ninety thousand dollars right so so this is literally one tenth of what

01:55:38 is available right now in the market in the laser segment right uh however there are other players

01:55:43 also who do in a fused deposition modeling

01:55:46 technique right uh they they do 3d print that does exist uh the only problem being that there

01:55:52 are multiple processes in such a compact uh you know system so there are multiple processes

01:55:57 printing debinding sintering what we do is and these are all carried out in three different

01:56:01 separate you know equipment types of equipment.

01:56:13 What we do is we directly print and then put it in a sintering furnace where it's debounced, sintered and heat treated all in one single cycle, all in one single equipment.

01:56:16 So that ends up saving at least 14 hours in time.

01:56:24 And because we are able to, you know, cut down on a process and an equipment, it brings down the price of the entire system as well what's uh what's the

01:56:26 resolution of the printer like somebody in the audience asked uh so uh the resolution of the

01:56:31 printer so we can do layer thickness of 100 microns right now uh as we speak uh in the in the

01:56:37 in the phase two which is the two quarters from now going ahead we'll be able to do 80 microns as

01:56:41 well and you're not using lasers like how does it can

01:56:45 you repeat quickly how it works so we are not using lasers what we do use is we use filaments

01:56:52 right and uh these filaments are uh uh patent pending so the entire uh the the composition of

01:56:58 the filament is patent pending so if you buy the printer from us you will have to buy the filament

01:57:03 from us because it's the only filament,

01:57:05 which is compatible with this kind of system. Uh,

01:57:08 and typically the filament is a mixture of metal powders and other binder

01:57:13 systems. Uh,

01:57:14 the fun part is that you don't have to separately catalytically rebind them.

01:57:19 Uh, they get completely, formally deboned when you send them.

01:57:22 So that's how you're able to save a hell lot of time, uh, even as compared to other,

01:57:27 uh, uh, you know, uh, 3d printing, uh, compact 3d printers that are there in the market.

01:57:32 So if I understood this correctly, you're basically, you're doing the metal binding.

01:57:39 The metal binders, what you're doing, right?

01:57:41 That's the technique.

01:57:42 binders what you're doing right that's the technique

01:57:52 no no not arc welding uh not arc welding not laser uh laser bit powder fusion or electron beam right not exactly binder jetting because these are the filament right so the filament is then you know

01:57:57 it's the molten filament is then deposited layer by layer it's like plastic 3d printing only

01:58:03 so is this only possible for certain kinds of metals

01:58:06 and ss etc because or is this no it's possible for ms no no it's possible because we add certain

01:58:14 binders into the into the metal powders right so we add certain amount of binders in the in the in

01:58:20 the in the in the in the metal filament uh which is then printed layer by layer.

01:58:25 We do remove the binders when they're centered

01:58:29 so that what you're left with is a fully metal part.

01:58:32 So they are completely thermally degraded, the binders.

01:58:36 Okay. And I'm curious to understand,

01:58:39 how do the binders come out?

01:58:41 Like if you're talking about solid matrices,

01:58:47 how does it degrade like do you have sublimation so that it evaporates no no no correct correct it

01:58:53 it thermally degrades you're right it sort of evaporates it it it thermally degrades

01:58:59 okay and completely thermally okay i'll ask you some more questions.

01:59:06 But and what about the general mechanical properties of the system, etc?

01:59:12 Like, is this meant for just pure prototyping?

01:59:14 And it's going to production?

01:59:15 What tolerance is functional prototyping?

01:59:17 This is fun.

01:59:18 This is for functional prototyping, right?

01:59:20 So So for example, Rahul, what happens in tooling is that before you actually make a

01:59:24 tool, right, you go through a phase of design and engineering.

01:59:29 So you make a couple of proto tools and then you make the final tool, right?

01:59:33 And typically this journey is pretty long because it takes a while to make these proto tools as well.

01:59:37 So that is where we come in.

01:59:39 You can not only make the proto tools using our printer.

01:59:42 In fact, you can also make the final tool using our printer in fact you can also make the final tool using our printer

01:59:51 right so you can you can also print really really hard metals using uh you know think metal systems uh which which can be for example i'm sorry can you do incone we can do in kernel yeah we can do

01:59:58 in canal in fact it's a it's a it's a part of our phase three uh we can do in-canal and it's a part of our phase 3.

02:00:06 So that's three quarters

02:00:07 for now and

02:00:08 we are going to

02:00:11 do in-canal 625 and 718

02:00:13 both.

02:00:15 So that's a part of our third phase

02:00:17 and we will do it.

02:00:21 Understood

02:00:21 when you said that you'll use it for prototyping

02:00:23 but when you said that you can also use it for production ready how are you testing and measuring your prototype quality to be able to say it'll withstand the tests necessary for this system?

02:00:32 For example, there are certain ASTM standards that we follow, right? There are certain ASTM standards that we follow and these are for different, different, different, what do you call it? Different tests, different characteristics,

02:00:45 basically different mechanical characteristics.

02:00:46 For example, we test the tensile,

02:00:49 we take tensile specimens

02:00:51 and we check the tensile strength of the part,

02:00:55 ASTM, EATM.

02:00:56 Then we also take the Young's modulus of the part.

02:00:58 We check the density of the part.

02:01:00 We use, you know, CT scan to scan layer by layer and see where, if, what is the density of the part?

02:01:09 Is there any porosity in the part?

02:01:14 Yeah, you can, you can absolutely.

02:01:17 You can absolutely scan layer by layer and then you can check how something like that in house already.

02:01:23 That's pretty cool.

02:01:25 Uh, yeah, so we do we do uh what we call this so there there are a couple of uh a dozen of sensors and

02:01:31 cameras on board uh which can ex which can actually tell us if if the printer is depositing

02:01:36 the layer right okay so so so that sort of ensures the quality of the final part right if for example

02:01:44 if some if let's say in the bulk

02:01:46 somewhere the material has been under extruded or under deposited we can actually tell that you know

02:01:51 this is the problem and uh you know we probably have to uh you know do some sort of heat treatment

02:01:56 to uh to to to to take care of that i will quickly cut you in because i'm currently feeling like my

02:02:04 mother at christmas where she has like no idea what people talk like when I talk to my mother about like my job, you know, she's just like nodding along and like just be happy to be here.

02:02:13 You know, this is like literally how I feel right now when you guys like go hard on 3D printing.

02:02:18 I'm really sorry, Andreas.

02:02:20 My bad.

02:02:21 This is like exactly why I wanted Raul here because like feedback I can give on this is next to none.

02:02:26 He is the expert for deep tech in this kind of stuff.

02:02:31 Before we wrap up, what would be useful for you from the audience or anybody else?

02:02:35 How can people help you?

02:02:38 How can people help us?

02:02:40 Well, we would love it if people explore what we are trying to do.

02:02:47 They get in touch with us.

02:02:48 We very honestly, in fact, with our first couple of our customers with whom we are going to deploy our systems,

02:02:57 we have a fun time spreading awareness, educating what's there, what could be done,

02:03:04 and various ways in which 3d printing can

02:03:06 can come and really handle so this is something that we really enjoy would love people if they

02:03:11 you know approached us or you know if they have something really cool uh you know some sort of

02:03:14 cool design some sort of a challenge that hey can you guys sort of print this uh yeah i think i

02:03:19 think that would be pretty awesome awesome um yeah thanks so much for your time. I will wrap it up.

02:03:26 We're like already like far over

02:03:28 time. Say hi

02:03:29 to us. Say hi from us to Arushi.

02:03:31 Like unfortunately she couldn't join this time.

02:03:34 Like I read her CV.

02:03:36 She worked at like Hyperloop and a few other things

02:03:37 and she's like leading your tech team, which is

02:03:40 pretty impressive. But like please say hi

02:03:41 first. And if anybody wants to get in

02:03:43 contact, like think metal dot

02:03:46 IN. And, yeah, like, Raul, you seem very interested. So like,

02:03:51 maybe you two afterwards jump on a different call. Last question

02:03:55 on my end, like, how many hours more do you work today? What do

02:03:59 you think?

02:04:01 All right, so we have a couple of problems that we are handling right now.

02:04:05 So our team, I say this without most humility, touch wood.

02:04:14 We are wherever we are because of our team, being very honest.

02:04:18 And they're still working in the background as I speak to you, right?

02:04:23 Because we have a couple of systems

02:04:25 that need to be deployed.

02:04:26 There are times when we have literally slept

02:04:28 in the office and we do have our toothbrushes

02:04:31 here in the office just in case.

02:04:33 And the time has, yeah, yeah.

02:04:35 There have been times where we've done that, right?

02:04:38 Like we have a demo with an investor the next day

02:04:39 and then, you know, we are sleeping in the office

02:04:41 the night earlier because we have a demo.

02:04:44 What's your guess for this weekend? Like for today? Like what time do you go to bed today?

02:04:51 That's a very tricky question. We don't go to bed until four o'clock in the morning, to be very honest.

02:04:54 Like an average, like that's the average. I can speak for most of the team members on our team.

02:05:01 Most of them are up till three o'clock, four o'clock. And we have chats. We have legit WhatsApp chats where we are texting

02:05:07 at 4 o'clock in the morning, 3 o'clock in the morning. We are sending YouTube

02:05:11 videos and stuff like that, whatever we are able to sign up in.

02:05:15 Yeah, we are pretty active. Impressive, impressive.

02:05:19 Where are you guys based out of, by the way? I'm sorry. We are based out of Chennai.

02:05:24 Nice. Nice.

02:05:25 Cool.

02:05:27 Thanks so much for your time.

02:05:28 Thanks for joining us.

02:05:28 Thank you, Andreas.

02:05:29 Thank you, Rahul.

02:05:31 Thank you so much for your time.

02:05:34 And yeah, we'll probably catch up later as well.

02:05:35 Cool.

02:05:35 Bye-bye.

02:05:37 This was super sub-experts.

02:05:37 Bye-bye.

02:05:37 Peace.

02:05:39 Thank you.

02:05:46 So, Rahul, this is crazy. This is like one of the things that, um, impressed me a lot in India.

02:05:50 Um, so I did like a lot of meetings very spontaneously and I had people who were like, yeah, of course

02:05:56 I drive to the airport to meet you at the airport, you know, on like really short notice.

02:06:01 No problem.

02:06:02 I had like three meetings at the airport, you know?

02:06:03 on like really short notice no problem i had like three meetings at the airport you know i had people i had founders i met at like 1 a.m and it was like the most normal thing ever

02:06:10 you know i mean like completely i get it like there's a lot of like if people work late in

02:06:16 many cases it has to do with like a lot of the industry partners like work on for example

02:06:20 pacific time or eastern time like there's like an it makes sense in many cases you

02:06:25 know but i also talked to a lot of founders who were not working on san francisco time you know

02:06:29 like they weren't working for san francisco clients they were on their own so for example

02:06:33 when i met went to amitabad to go to one of my portfolio companies i was picked up at like i

02:06:39 think 9 p.m or something by the founder he was like in a zoom call with an investor uh while driving

02:06:46 me you know driving back to the office and i was like expecting we go like maybe for dinner if it's

02:06:52 not too late we drove back to the office and the whole team was still there you know um that's

02:06:57 that's crazy you know it's it's very interestingly i think not necessarily because of SF time, I've now noticed this

02:07:05 going back to college campuses.

02:07:07 That is what college campus life is.

02:07:09 So you land up in any of these colleges, and at 12 o'clock in the afternoon, it will look

02:07:14 like a wasteland.

02:07:16 There's nobody on the street, there's nobody walking around.

02:07:19 And you do the same thing at 12 o'clock in the night, you will feel that there's a carnival going on.

02:07:26 And it's this culture that got built, I think, at a lot of engineering colleges, because kids used to go to regular school in the morning and then study after hours for all of these competitive exams.

02:07:37 And they got so used to staying up late.

02:07:40 So there is the Kota factory.

02:07:43 This is a fun fact about Indiaia the place where people go to

02:07:45 study for these competitive exams they have classes that start at six in the evening so you start

02:07:52 studying at six in the evening you do your classes from six to nine then you do your homework from

02:07:57 nine to four in the morning then you have breakfast at 4 30 and go to sleep and then wake up at one o'clock okay and i know literally half of the

02:08:08 students at every elite engineering college in india have lived this life for two years

02:08:13 crazy and you just become nocturnal creatures after that and it's also like um it's like a lot

02:08:18 of people don't notice like the iit they're basically centralized tests like if you get

02:08:22 accepted you get accepted right like no matter who you are,

02:08:25 no matter what's your background, you know?

02:08:27 And those standards,

02:08:28 those tests are standardized all across India.

02:08:30 And like one thing that like kind of impressed me

02:08:32 is like when it's called the JEE,

02:08:35 when it's happening,

02:08:36 you have actually newspapers that print the pictures

02:08:39 of like the winners essentially,

02:08:41 like on the cover.

02:08:42 I mean, to be fair, it's like a sponsored ad

02:08:44 basically by a

02:08:45 company that like does education for those exams fair fair but it's still the front page of the

02:08:51 newspaper you know i mean uh which is which is crazy you know no i i i used to hate them earlier

02:08:58 because i thought it was just and i still have questions about, but I think it's still better that we least deifying this kind of hard work and ability and

02:09:29 talent and and it truly does like this one singular exam or just like right after 12th grade has the

02:09:36 ability to change the trajectory of your career like there's the trajectory of your life like

02:09:41 everything it's a lottery ticket yeah like if you if you get to a good IIT or like another very good university,

02:09:48 there's a high chance that you will get like an O1 to the States, for example,

02:09:52 which used to be a big thing in the past, still is.

02:09:54 You know, like now more and more people stay in India, you know,

02:09:57 but that's a lottery ticket win almost and like with comparable chances, right?

02:10:03 Quick fun fact.

02:10:10 One thing I personally really like is like

02:10:13 the Indian engineers like reaching out

02:10:16 to like open source projects,

02:10:17 like talented people and like starting just to work.

02:10:20 And like, it's a weird fun fact,

02:10:21 the email app that we gave the founder a heart attack from,

02:10:26 you know, who's like in the chat, his first employee now is like somebody who just like

02:10:32 started contributing to his GitHub, like because it's open source anyway. And he's a kid from India.

02:10:37 Like I think, like I don't know, like high school or university, like early university or something

02:10:41 like that. And it's just like, I think it's a computer science student like basically just like you know what like starting until 4am isn't enough i also like

02:10:48 will just uh start like coding there as a full-time job you know the same way as like we had before

02:10:55 shree like hey you know what like what about autonomous drones like why not that sounds like

02:10:59 a good hobby you know like who needs who needs becoming a dj like let's build like warfare you

02:11:04 know like what the hell.

02:11:06 Cool.

02:11:07 This was an awesome session.

02:11:08 Arul, thanks so much for your time.

02:11:10 Thanks for...

02:11:10 Thank you for having me.

02:11:11 Thank you for covering me.

02:11:12 I have like no freaking idea about like neither drones nor 3D printing.

02:11:16 So you were like a great help.

02:11:18 And I also know that you have a big announcement next week,

02:11:20 which I cannot spoiler yet, you know,

02:11:22 but I wish you all the best for this one.

02:11:30 And thanks so much for your time, dude. Thank much man it was a pleasure cheers bye-bye sweet oh so folks thanks so much for joining we completely over timed uh it's now almost

02:11:43 midnight in india it's almost dinner time here.

02:11:46 But thanks everybody for joining.

02:11:49 Thanks for all the founders coming.

02:11:52 Cheers to Tanush for explaining a little bit more

02:11:55 on the DPI, which to me is still mind-blowing.

02:12:00 At some point, I want to do a stream

02:12:01 on the problems I personally see in Europe.

02:12:04 And 99% of them come from the fragmentation

02:12:07 and the fact that we have no standards whatsoever.

02:12:10 And have the European government mainly focused on regulation.

02:12:13 And regulation and standardization sound similar,

02:12:16 but from my point of view, it's not.