Spiro Floropoulos | Algora TV

Vanilla C/WASM/HTML/JS/CSS(3D)/DOM - Indie Game Dev

Spiro Floropoulos

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PureAmbrosia spirod1Hi

PureAmbrosia Hiya! Tired today. Feel like I haven't got much done.

PureAmbrosia We are alright for the most part.

PureAmbrosia How are you doing?

lemnean Your matrix theme cannot pull the wool over our eyes, we know that is sublime text.

PureAmbrosia LUL

lemnean I don't know what is worse, that you are using sublime text, or that you are proud of it

PureAmbrosia You got a unhinged rant ready for us?

lemnean @PureAmbrosia the sublime love is pretty unhinged

lemnean Do you at least use a fancy keyboard?

lemnean I will allow it

lemnean qwerty?

PureAmbrosia I got to wait until the time is right. 👀

lemnean First they gaslight you into thinking you don't need arrow keys, then they tempt you with the 80 key version

lemnean the fiends!

lemnean the original one isn't wireless?

lemnean does it at least use AA batteries?

lemnean or you could buy this for a fraction of the cost

lemnean amazon.com/RK-ROYAL-KLUDGE-Ergonomic-Mechanical/dp/B0D92B2SP9

lemnean You could buy the black version and swap out the caps

lemnean The one I linked is also split

lemnean so can the one I linked to

lemnean indeed

jaythedeveloper keep on shoving it down on his stream

jaythedeveloper Don't let him bully you LUL

lemnean Might as well get a dygma raise at that point

PureAmbrosia Hope your not too tired for a rant, or I can save it until next stream. I must purchase wisely.

jaythedeveloper You call that a keyboard?

jaythedeveloper this is a keyboard https://www.whiteclouds.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/large-keyboard-large.jpeg

lemnean auto nunning sounds like a fetish

lemnean nerd snipe? we are trying to red pill you

lemnean do you think jonathan blow would approve of your fancy keyboard?

PureAmbrosia Okay, waiting for more peeps. The end of the last stream was great.

lemnean behold

lemnean youtube.com/watch?v=4yh9LsvL5IE

lemnean it is glorious

lemnean peak comedy

lemnean you have to watch it

PureAmbrosia The breaking down of everything that is wrong is such a learning experience.

lemnean soon Spiro's cynicism will devour itself

lemnean and he will come full circle as a JS bro

PureAmbrosia I thought it was he libraries and frameworks that were the problem, not vanilla JavaScript.

Justin Henley Good to see you, champ! 👻

lemnean @PureAmbrosia It is both, but by 'JS bros' I mainly mean framework groupies

PureAmbrosia Gotcha, clarification is good.

PureAmbrosia LUL

rvIceBreaker where we rantin' bois

PureAmbrosia Now, if we could just get a raid...

lemnean someone clip it

lemnean this is prime divorce matieral

lemnean Your wife is a software developer?

rvIceBreaker so everything

rvIceBreaker LUL

lemnean just wait until you learn about zigbee2mqtt

PureAmbrosia ...I just want some more people in here who are smarter than me.

rvIceBreaker Actually believeable

rvIceBreaker Don't worry, I'm smarter than you :)

lemnean Don't tell me she has osmotically acquired an appreciation for front end developer jokes

rvIceBreaker (implied kappa)

lemnean you are a sick man spiro

PureAmbrosia More people^, it get the conversation going.

lemnean Are you rewriting your old zig project in C?

rvIceBreaker a story in 3 parts

lemnean FOMO in 3 parts

lemnean Jai rewrite when?

lemnean html can contain inline wasm?

lemnean oh, base64 encoded

rvIceBreaker LUL

lemnean won't that be huge?

rvIceBreaker inventing people to be mad about, classic.

lemnean python, javascript and C, the unholy combination

rvIceBreaker This is looking a whole hell of a lot like a compilation process Kappa

lemnean cost of decoding

Marco Siedentopf oyoy!

Marco Siedentopf how are you doing tonight?

mr_elf_man why not just load the atlas from JS?

mr_elf_man I think you can even have html preload and an arraybuffer will be immediately available

lemnean it's 33% fixed, every 3 bytes requires 4 base64 chars

Marco Siedentopf have you looked at the declarative web components proposal, that i sent you?

mr_elf_man I think by separating files, each file can be gzipped by the server

rvIceBreaker "how do i get this down to a single file 🤔 " build an exe like a civilized person Kappa

lemnean @mr_elf_man this will incur 400% increase in size

lemnean which may or may not be significant

lemnean @rvIceBreaker when is the last time you ran an executable that wasn't the browser?

lemnean steam games don't count

rvIceBreaker @lemnean ... kappa?

rvIceBreaker Oh, you're serious?

rvIceBreaker Constantly. All the time. Literally like 4 right now.

rvIceBreaker I own a windows PC, not a chrome book, I do more than browse facebook and call that 'using a computer'.

lemnean I think I triggered rvIce

lemnean score

rvIceBreaker 🤷

Marco Siedentopf did you sleep the past days? if you slept, you've had time

lemnean You can use a data url which is base64 encoded

mr_elf_man utf8 or smth as well?

mr_elf_man that damn google popup on stackoverflow is so annoying

mr_elf_man it's not even html based, so you cant adblock it

jaythedeveloper base64 encoding makes things 33% larger fwiw.

jaythedeveloper not that big if things are already small.

lemnean You can probably get most of that back if you serve with gzip compression

lemnean I do not approve of this madness

jaythedeveloper More madness please.

lemnean Spiro's pent up PR review rage is spilling over into his second life

lemnean just ship an executable bro

rvIceBreaker with about the same amount of effort you can send someone a rom dump. Even complete with assembly, and not web-flavored Kappa

rvIceBreaker LUL

jaythedeveloper What's madness is a PHP backend I work on that has XSS that breaks on base64 encoded data sometimes because it looks like javascript

rvIceBreaker buy low // sell high

lemnean @jaythedeveloper Save your perverse confessions for your priest

rvIceBreaker you're missing 'buy low' and 'sell high'

rvIceBreaker Behold. A business plan.

rvIceBreaker I mean, tack on chia, really give that hardware a run for its money

b0usif !language

b0usif !dev

jaythedeveloper @b0usif all of them

b0usif oh i just saw it C/WASM/HTML/JS/CSS(3D)/DOM

b0usif thanks

rvIceBreaker LUL

b0usif bousifHeart bousifHeart bousifHeart bousifHeart

b0usif bousifHeart bousifHeart bousifHeart

b0usif game ?

b0usif flash game ?

b0usif lmao

b0usif xD

b0usif exactly

rvIceBreaker What chat doesn't know is THAT'S the real reason for the language switching... the zig has eth mining, odin introduced btc, C will use chia... They never went away, they're just components of the larger hardware gangbang ecosystem Kappa

lemnean Spiro has crushed many the spirit of an intern

Marco Siedentopf I'm going to start teaching web stuff on Thursday to some illustrators.

Marco Siedentopf should i start with react?

PureAmbrosia Oh no... React mentioned.

Marco Siedentopf :D i'm actually starting with markdown

lemnean I think a lot of the bootcamp mania has subsided and the next generation is starting to care more about performance

lemnean which is why people like muratori and blow are blowing up

jaythedeveloper I think you start with Javascript vanilla.

rvIceBreaker is this the part where we have the classic 'html is not a programming language' talk?

Marco Siedentopf haha ye, illustrators. macbooks. lots of performance left untouched

lemnean watch prime's chat at your peril

PureAmbrosia 🤔

Marco Siedentopf really though, the plan is to start with a 'document' as a concept, with markdown, because it teaches the structure with headers and paragraphs, and you can convert markdown to html. then blend in inline styling and build on that

lemnean is it the rant that is redeemed or the rant that redeems us?

Marco Siedentopf so you have the markdown and html side by side

Marco Siedentopf as well as the preview

lemnean Why is your bot spamming X quotes?

rvIceBreaker its chat from twitter stream

dmmulroy it’s sharing what people are saying on X

dmmulroy window.store = {}

lemnean @rvIceBreaker there is a twitter stream?

rvIceBreaker @lemnean you're a twitter stream

lemnean WutFace

dmmulroy that was the wrong chat lmao

lemnean your mods are unfaithful

rvIceBreaker Ah yes, the windows store...

lemnean got hit with an ad

vicentedealencar i think style.background = "url(data..."

lemnean should probably do a bit of work

lemnean will be back later

rvIceBreaker this guy doesn't even make websites, what a phony

rvIceBreaker bottom left coordinates DansGame

rvIceBreaker there's probably a png header or something in there you'll need...

dmmulroy there’s zero shot that will work lmao

dmmulroy you could read it into an UInt8Array no?

s9tpepper_ @SpirodonFL I demand my unhinged rant.

PureAmbrosia Oh shit! @s9tpepper_ had a rant in the firing chamber.

rvIceBreaker LUL

s9tpepper_ @PureAmbrosia lol

vicentedealencar you could a css class with that background image. on each tile you could play with background-position

rvIceBreaker "if I enable a feature I might as well BUILD A SOCIETY AT THE BOTTOM OF THE OCEAN OUT OF ROCKET SHIPS"

PureAmbrosia Now I get to save mine for another time. Mwahahahaha.

dmmulroy read the image into a bitmap of the pixels

rvIceBreaker using css is probably the way @vicentedealencar

jaythedeveloper Can you not embed things in zig ?

rvIceBreaker as sick as it would be to basically dish out texture buffers by hand you're _really_ reinventing the wheel on that one... I'm sure the browser is referencing a single instance of the image if it shares a css class or whatever...

dmmulroy can’t you use a SharedArrayBuffer to share the memory between wasm and ja

dmmulroy js*

rvIceBreaker Can't create a <style> element from js can you

vicentedealencar @rvIceBreaker you can

rvIceBreaker but I think the problem he's going to run into is it won't refresh the class dynamically

rvIceBreaker I think css is eval'd on document load only

rvIceBreaker or am I crazy

vicentedealencar is atlas not static? why refresh it?

vicentedealencar @rvIceBreaker refereing to this

rvIceBreaker @vicentedealencar well he's stuffing the value from js, so its not static

rvIceBreaker But I'm wrong anyway so nevermind me LUL

vicentedealencar now play with background-postition

rvIceBreaker Feel like i've gotten bit by that before though

vicentedealencar lets go

Moldy Apple i only accept special treats from your mom

vicentedealencar game.html ftw

Moldy Apple 🪨

rvIceBreaker All that's left now is to bundle it in electron and there you go Kappa

vicentedealencar ship the html file

rvIceBreaker implement git from scratch, git pull the chromium repo, build it, inject your html file, execute

rvIceBreaker ONE FILE LETS GOOO

vicentedealencar mix-blend-mode?

rvIceBreaker I mean i think you still need an element per image yeah?

rvIceBreaker I'm just saying I don't think mix-blend-mode will comp a collection of images down into a single element, you still need the elements to be there. So z-index and png transparency will get you 99% of what you want.

rvIceBreaker though mix-blend-mode could do some cool effects

rvIceBreaker If it does I would be surprised, its just draw order is all it should be changing

rvIceBreaker I could see that because transforms break out of the typical element rendering, but I would imagine z-index just changes what gets drawn first/last. That shouldn't NEED the gpu, its literally just queue order...

vicentedealencar z-index is older than gpus

rvIceBreaker but I guess i should be surprised if it did use gpu

vicentedealencar jkj

rvIceBreaker shouldn't* be surprised

rvIceBreaker yeah that'll be cool. that and particle effects, but that would probably use transforms so... back to square 1..

vicentedealencar dom particles?!?!

rvIceBreaker You could PROBABLY get pretty far with just position: absolute and setting left: and top:

rvIceBreaker Nah it'd be a little simplistic but it'd probably be a nice little spice on top here and there

rvIceBreaker it might get clipped with relative position

rvIceBreaker I don't think so, cause i think the parent bounds will still clip it

rvIceBreaker If you can add in rotations without triggering gpu then you're pretty much golden

rvIceBreaker also for your 9-slice i wrote a thing for that like a year ago now Kappa

rvIceBreaker why wouldn't you just do it by tile?

rvIceBreaker I could see doing contigious blocks of tiles being combined and using like... background-repeat. But that's going to assume sets of similar tiles for that to work really...

rvIceBreaker I think that would technically end up being less efficient but we're also in the browser so

rvIceBreaker the point of using atlases is because its efficient use of memory; you allocate one contiguous block and reference it everwhere, cuts down on vmem io and talking back and forth with the gpu, in something like OGL

rvIceBreaker as well as overhead of per-texture allocations, since that has descriptor overhead

rvIceBreaker more textures = worse. generally.

rvIceBreaker Yeah you'll be fine regardless, we're talking about things that are so far removed in the browser..

rvIceBreaker however I do think, to argue for just doing it by tile, I think you get more flexibility by being able to use tiles wherever you want.

rvIceBreaker alternative thought for you, you could define groups of tiles into prefab'd constructs and then distribute those are you need. There's an NES tool that calls them 'metatiles', basically just larger groups of smaller tiles.

rvIceBreaker those as* you need

Owencodes yo spiro is alive <3 ma boy

Owencodes how yeah been

Owencodes happy holidays man :)

rvIceBreaker Yeah basically. Its really more of a design tool that at point for all it matters, you could just define the map with those tiles where they should be...

Owencodes yeah im good bro just grinding still learning tons of new stuff since last talked and fixed up my setup abit more just need to finish a few more laravel projects for my portfolio and relaunch next year

Owencodes <3 thanks dad :D

rvIceBreaker yeah there's tons of ideas when it comes to tile stuff... what'll be tricky is how do you position those prefabs (what tile do you orient from) and how do you handle clipping at the borders of the viewport (probably leads you right back to per-tile render)

rvIceBreaker might need to set top and left to 0

Owencodes LUL LUL np bro

rvIceBreaker on all elements so they overlap

rvIceBreaker its not position, its display:

SpirodonFL Owencodes is here to kick back and relax! Leave them alone…

Owencodes !lurk bro

rvIceBreaker display might be a block type, try inline or something

rvIceBreaker I mean I think you still need position relative too

rvIceBreaker just that I know display: block will... 'break' after the element and stack them

rvIceBreaker default div will break each element on y

rvIceBreaker LUL there's some other option in there

rvIceBreaker inline-block maybe?

vicentedealencar float: left; lolololol

rvIceBreaker ^

rvIceBreaker that'll do er LUL

rvIceBreaker this is classic FE here. 'how do i get this button to be where i want it to be, wtf' and 4 hours of trying every option...

vicentedealencar yo, can we just go back to table layout already?

rvIceBreaker border:0;

rvIceBreaker try resizing your window though

rvIceBreaker cause I feel like abs without a px will screw you

rvIceBreaker eh, everything is left aligned anyway...

rvIceBreaker I think you were using 64x64 tiles before

rvIceBreaker wow its looking like a game...

rvIceBreaker your elements are overlapping

rvIceBreaker yeah there's a background width and height somewhere...

rvIceBreaker its size

vicentedealencar is your div not 64x64?

rvIceBreaker background-size: wpx hpx

vicentedealencar 32 w/e

rvIceBreaker and THEN you might need to do background contain or whatever

vicentedealencar border-box not set?

rvIceBreaker throw in no-repeat

rvIceBreaker LUL

rvIceBreaker torturing css in real-time

rvIceBreaker It might actually be, I know one of those options is fucking stupid like that...

Lafolie_ heya

Lafolie_ Kraken kard games, arg mateys

rvIceBreaker I would probably fact check your atlas image there and make sure things are actually aligned correctly...

rvIceBreaker but it looks relatively fine at the moment...

rvIceBreaker 69:420

rvIceBreaker this is really impressive for only a couple hours in game maker Kappa

vicentedealencar gg

rvIceBreaker nanite

rvIceBreaker infinite tesselation

rvIceBreaker raytracing

rvIceBreaker RTX: on

NakorBlue does unreal 5 have jiggle physics?

Lafolie_ FSAA

A username now make it 3D!

rvIceBreaker Oh TXAA, the worst invention man ever devised?

rvIceBreaker TXAA is worse than nuclear weapons

rvIceBreaker Its already 3d LUL

rvIceBreaker holding

vicentedealencar and transform perspective also

rvIceBreaker does css have a perspective transform? LUL

Lafolie_ For this kinda game you'd want ortho not, perspective

rvIceBreaker Why are these things in our web browsers...

vicentedealencar rotate3d + perspective

vicentedealencar lets gooo

rvIceBreaker you're right, I love it when google gives me perspective transformed AI summary results

rvIceBreaker just a different kind of perspective transform

rvIceBreaker yeah I would think so

Lafolie_ Is there a look_at() function? Basically wanna billboard the sprites

rvIceBreaker billboards are just inverse of your camera rotation 🤓

Lafolie_ Depending on how your scene graph is setup,you might have to apply the perspective transform to the sprites

Imperious just a daily reminder Spiro loves little Asian men

A username set the squid perspective to the same as the board plus (or minus) some?

Lafolie_ 'cause atm they have the same view/model transform as the tilemap

rvIceBreaker I'm guessing that perspective value is a fov? probably horizontal fov?

rvIceBreaker solution; copy that transform to the bg_element class and npc_element class

rvIceBreaker remove from parent

Lafolie_ Still think these types of games are way better represented with orthographic projection rather than perspective also

vicentedealencar transform: unset;?

vicentedealencar nah

Lafolie_ No it's actual 3D :P

Lafolie_ Just saw the html graph, the sprites are inside the tle divs right?

NakorBlue pritty sure SNES games were doing what you are trying to do

rvIceBreaker I think the transform is propagating down to the child elements, so everything gets the same perspective transform, but you'll want to rotate the ocean tiles one way and rotate the sprites... either the other way or not at all

Lafolie_ SNES kinda does this, but for a single tilemap

vicentedealencar https://developer.mozilla.org/pt-BR/docs/Web/CSS/transform-function/perspective

Lafolie_ The sprites that "stick up" are regular per-scanline sprites (like the hardware mouse cursor on modern GPUs)

Lafolie_ Gonna get something to eat anyways, brb and good luck

rvIceBreaker okay one sec, we're onto it

rvIceBreaker prespective transform on the parent, but not rotate. rotate on elements

rvIceBreaker LUL this is.. the worst.

rvIceBreaker you... could be rotating on the wrong axis for the npcs

rvIceBreaker which is your first 3 values in rotate3d

vicentedealencar not sure if possible only with css

rvIceBreaker vince and laf might be right, try unsetting the transform

rvIceBreaker and see if css can just comp it outside the perspective transform

rvIceBreaker no no, transform: unset;

vicentedealencar @rvIceBreaker i dont think transforms cascade like that...

rvIceBreaker looks like it to me

rvIceBreaker when you perspective the parent container you perspective everything

vicentedealencar it assumes the node is 2d and transforms its pixels all together

vicentedealencar you could have another div layer of elements standing up and try to align both planes

rvIceBreaker no it does

Muhammed Adil. KK hi

rvIceBreaker look at the mozilla example and look at the valuves

rvIceBreaker values* jesus i can type

Muhammed Adil. KK what your doing

Muhammed Adil. KK where are you from

A username Ask chatgpt

rvIceBreaker the parent has a perspective, everything else is just translated/rotated. I think the element hierarchy is basically just the matrix stack like OGL would do.

rvIceBreaker push and pop

Muhammed Adil. KK v.........................................v.........................................v.........................................v.........................................v...............................

vicentedealencar wow!

vicentedealencar perserve-3d is new to me

rvIceBreaker fix your ocean tile LUL

vicentedealencar and translate to bring it up

vicentedealencar cool shit

rvIceBreaker we've gone from 0 gpu to 100% gpu in 10 easy steps

rvIceBreaker we have reinvented a worse graphics api via css LUL

rvIceBreaker depends, how stupid have we got?

rvIceBreaker jesus christ LUL

rvIceBreaker this is more escalation than the cuban missile crisis

rvIceBreaker "NO GPU EVER" -> "Maybe we can have a little GPU..." -> "LETS MAKE A FIRST PERSON SHOOTER INSTEAD"

rvIceBreaker LUL

rvIceBreaker so fucking dumb LUL

A username Yaaaa!!!!

rvIceBreaker Great youtube clickbait headling though; "How i recreated Unreal Engine in firefox"

rvIceBreaker Arrows, circles, pog face

Lafolie_ back

Lafolie_ How unreal are we? Gettung sourcey? Unifying?

rvIceBreaker LUL

rvIceBreaker family friendly has left the building

rvIceBreaker LUL

rvIceBreaker https://www.twitch.tv/spirodonfl/clip/ObeseFrigidDogeKevinTurtle-N6wnX_1chnosDUTv

rvIceBreaker Just gonna go ahead and...

rvIceBreaker LUL hahaha

Lafolie_ https://www.twitch.tv/spirodonfl/clip/CrispySourBobaAliens-J4wsdqRF8ryBzc39

hylablocks that's c WASM?

rvIceBreaker You know what's REALLY fun?

rvIceBreaker My clips are featured :)

rvIceBreaker Have fun having that front and center on the twitch page

rvIceBreaker your channel page*

Lafolie_ yeah none of that hard, efficient stuff

rvIceBreaker https://www.twitch.tv/spirodonfl/clip/DarlingPlayfulKeyboardYouWHY-TjFbNLUfRiosNoqq

hylablocks I didn teven knew that existed wtf

hylablocks I thought it was a HTML5 canvas

rvIceBreaker Narrator: he's cheating

Lafolie_ Make the tilemap 256*256

hylablocks sometimes you gotta do some things just because you can

rvIceBreaker 2.5 HD... not 4k, but 2/3rds 4k

hylablocks from PHP to making a webassembly game in pure C is kinda crazy

Lafolie_ Really, I wanna see if it performs okay with a big map like that

rvIceBreaker 12x12 DansGame

rvIceBreaker rookie numbers

rvIceBreaker get that shit out of here

rvIceBreaker well thats like what... 131k dom elements?

Lafolie_ 65536 tiles

rvIceBreaker he... might have 2 per

rvIceBreaker plus a parent per tile actually so

A username webgpu time

rvIceBreaker its at LEAST double the width and height

Lafolie_ SO closer to 180k haha

Lafolie_ 195 rather

rvIceBreaker how it started: "THE DOM IS SO FAST" how its going:

Lafolie_ It'l be either y or z

Lafolie_ Try a bigger value than 10

rvIceBreaker I think its working

rvIceBreaker but your origin isn't center

rvIceBreaker there's a prop for that actually

rvIceBreaker LUL its trying so hard...

Lafolie_ oh wow it added scroll bars haha

rvIceBreaker I think that's the dev tools making it slow

rvIceBreaker the refresh in the dom view is probably killing any perf you might have

Lafolie_ This is mad slow. if you did this with gl it would could fart it out it's so easy

rvIceBreaker I see it coming and going though, I think it might be due to visibility clip

Lafolie_ Well it's just an early stress test

A username yeaaaa, this is what webgpu is for

Lafolie_ At least now you have some clue what the boundaries of this technique are

rvIceBreaker move the camera in really small circles

Lafolie_ Did you end up doing a transform on each individual div?

Lafolie_ Well that's a big part of the problem

rvIceBreaker ^ I don't think that's required, that might be causing something

Lafolie_ Well, I dunno how this broswer works under the hood, whether it batches any of this stuff or what

rvIceBreaker I would set it back to 12 so we can see anything LUL

Lafolie_ Which begs the question, does it perform any better on a different browser?

Lafolie_ Probably firefox being the only different one you can try

rvIceBreaker whats your total element count with 256x256?

rvIceBreaker do you have empty npc/layer1 elements?

rvIceBreaker you're positive?

rvIceBreaker I mean I don't imagine 65k elements is going to work well in the browser anyway but

rvIceBreaker ok...

rvIceBreaker well that's your build time

rvIceBreaker there we go

rvIceBreaker was literally just about to say you're not doing any dom refreshes

rvIceBreaker next question

rvIceBreaker to eliminate potential causes

rvIceBreaker how quickly does your input updates come back without any dom involved at all

rvIceBreaker I'm wondering if there's a delay happening due to a viewport oversight, so the delay is actually because of updates propagating through wasm

Lafolie_ Don't worry Sprio, I'll let you use my 2D engine when it's ready :P

Lafolie_ I license it out to you, for free, with the "DOM is slow hehehaha license 2.0"

rvIceBreaker can you get movement back?

rvIceBreaker just curious, i'm sure its probably the same thing

Lafolie_ So what is your ideal maximum map size for the game concept?

rvIceBreaker oh this is chrome? 🤮

Lafolie_ Wlel you could overcome it by rendering a sub-region

Lafolie_ AHA

Lafolie_ I WAS RIGHT

rvIceBreaker LUL suck it chrome

Lafolie_ The underlying implementation is differeny

Lafolie_ Chrome is SLOW confirmed

rvIceBreaker Oh wait

rvIceBreaker you have gpu disabled in chrome, right?

Lafolie_ oh

Lafolie_ :9

rvIceBreaker 2d might be related to hw accel

A username Would it be crazy to not use dom elements, instead redrawing the board in the backend?

Lafolie_ ah

PureAmbrosia I disappeared. Did I miss the rant?

Lafolie_ There's a rant?

rvIceBreaker @PureAmbrosia you missed some good clips

rvIceBreaker here let me get them for you :)

Lafolie_ https://www.twitch.tv/spirodonfl/clip/CrispySourBobaAliens-J4wsdqRF8ryBzc39

Lafolie_ That's faster than chrome was?

PureAmbrosia LUL

Lafolie_ Not it's significantly faster, I can see at 480p 30fps

rvIceBreaker gg ez

rvIceBreaker wait, again, did you re-enable hw accel in chrome?

rvIceBreaker LUL

rvIceBreaker CSS can't handle it

Lafolie_ Hey Spiro, can you hover the mouse over the game tab so we can see the mem usage?

Lafolie_ That's a lot, but I expected more

rvIceBreaker that's... ridiculously high

rvIceBreaker man web browsers suck

Lafolie_ I have a youtube tab that's 844Mb lol

Lafolie_ Oh, 884 even

Lafolie_ Like wtf. Almost a jigglebyte for A WEB PAGE

Lafolie_ wtf

rvIceBreaker I mean its ridiculously high for literally any other kind of application...

Lafolie_ I think it's just chrome jank man

rvIceBreaker I don't think it has to do with wasm, I bet it has to do with terrible management of resources

Lafolie_ I have no idea how it works. Got 3 youtube tabs right now, 1 playing. They are 531mb (playing, has chat), 341mb (idle), and 884(idle, has chat)

rvIceBreaker maybe using a css class _doesn't_ just reference a single image in memory, maybe web browsers are so dent brained they're just doing byval everywhere

rvIceBreaker your total raw resources on disk are nowhere near 100mb, where the fuck is all the extra consumption coming from

A username The console logs and JS would be the culprit

Lafolie_ Well there's gonna be a bunch of metadata for each div and all that crap

Lafolie_ There's a rendering one

rvIceBreaker even then, MBs maybe, not a hundred plus

rvIceBreaker ... no?

Lafolie_ That's not mem usage?

Lafolie_ Y'know what I think it might be

rvIceBreaker well... on the stack I would think

Lafolie_ JS garbage

Lafolie_ Can you manually trigger a GC cycle in js?

Lafolie_ oh yeah it's wasm

Lafolie_ Is there any wasm monitors?

rvIceBreaker I mean it wouldn't surprise me that you're right, just... blows my mind if that's the case

Lafolie_ *Are there

Lafolie_ Would that mean that a DOM re-render is duplicating state somehow?

rvIceBreaker its having an existential crisis in real time LUL

Lafolie_ Like they realloc everything or something

rvIceBreaker if that's the cause of the mem consumption yeah I think so

rvIceBreaker which seems fucking ridiculous to me

Lafolie_ Yeah just mutate it

vicentedealencar you are setting styles in js. if you do it with css variables maybe faster

rvIceBreaker I think the styles only happen on launch though

rvIceBreaker although.. maybe per-element styles could be part of the problem?

Lafolie_ No the style rerender was in the graph dood

Lafolie_ Hey can firefox render similar graphs for comparison?

rvIceBreaker that vmem consumption is also a little bizarre..

Lafolie_ I'm confused as to why the GPU memory fluctuates so much when you'er not uploadig new objects

rvIceBreaker only thought i have is they're rending each dom element in some back buffer, so visibility clip means you drop those buffers...

Lafolie_ ah right

Lafolie_ That's.... weird

Lafolie_ I guess their strategy is to do that once, then render it to an FBO which is displayed every frame

rvIceBreaker so more elements on screen = more memory, less elements = less... which is usually not what you want to be doing.

Lafolie_ Yeah that's gonna be really costly temporally

Lafolie_ because you're constantly sequestering and then freeing vram

rvIceBreaker and having to inform the gpu over the io bus

rvIceBreaker but i guess that's why you're getting 100fps and not a few thousand at least LUL

Lafolie_ Well that's why I said what I did earlier. We have no idea what strategy they use. If they generate a mesh out of divs that would be one thing, but if they do each one individually errrr

rvIceBreaker I mean what you're doing in terms of a gpu is like... the most basic of basic operations, your gpu can do matrix calculations in its fucking sleep.

ALsJourney Hi spiro

ALsJourney Huh

rvIceBreaker your gpu utilization would probably be low enough to round to 0 LUL

Lafolie_ Does that graph only update on first paint or something?

rvIceBreaker LUL all better

Lafolie_ Are you sure that doesn't mean GPU's cpu/

rvIceBreaker I dunno if i believe that but honestly its been a long time since cpus were completely dogshit awful at fp math...

Lafolie_ For very small tris, CPU is actually faster

rvIceBreaker right, no io

Lafolie_ Not even

Lafolie_ It's because of wasted calculations

Lafolie_ GPUs have a minimum kernel size, so for a tri that only covers a single fragment, there's wasted work

rvIceBreaker that makes sense too

Lafolie_ It's such an issue that Nanite does the small tris on the CPU

Lafolie_ How the fuck they manage that I have no idea, but it does it

rvIceBreaker assuming we believe the AI

rvIceBreaker that could either be like laf says and its an optimization, or that's literally just the pcie bus overhead LUL

Lafolie_ I'm still doubtful it's on the CPU, especially since that one graph was sub-tree'd under the GPU heading

rvIceBreaker ie the cpu chatting to the gpu to do something stupid simple because the browser is constantly rebuilding state

Lafolie_ Could is just be poor wording in the tooltip?

rvIceBreaker well i'm wondering if its basically including api calls

Quadrinomical When does it ever make sense

rvIceBreaker I think its using the gpu to draw, but the utilization % is purely the cpu making gpu api calls

rvIceBreaker the gpu is fucking asleep for all it matters, all the perf loss is the cpu having to talk out to the gpu constantly

rvIceBreaker because they buffer nothing

rvIceBreaker even if you do this same thing in the most dent-brained way possible with dx or ogl you'd get way better performance than this

Lafolie_ All Sprio's streams in 2025 are gonna be reading chromium source

Lafolie_ READING CHROMIUM SOURCE (Part #245433)

rvIceBreaker I mean check out task manager's usage pct, it won't be super accurate but that might be relative to firefox

rvIceBreaker ie 60% of everything firefox is doing with the gpu is your game

rvIceBreaker meanwhile systemwide, the gpu is 0%

rvIceBreaker Its about as smart as everything else to do with web browsers Kappa

rvIceBreaker Its neat. And dumb. Its dumb and neat.

Lafolie_ Running the browser, yep, scrap

rvIceBreaker I'd scrap it Kappa

Lafolie_ Spaceweb 2.0

Lafolie_ For that kinda turn-based gameplay, I use a pattern called "pushdown automata", which is basically an FSM powered by a stack

rvIceBreaker a stack of what?

Lafolie_ A stack of states

rvIceBreaker stack of shit :)

Lafolie_ It's critical to the pattern, makes a tonne of stuff super easy to compose

rvIceBreaker @Lafolie_ do you have any reference material on that?

rvIceBreaker LUL

Lafolie_ yeah hang on

rvIceBreaker I'll do you a favor and not clip that one

rvIceBreaker we can just keep that one between us

rvIceBreaker OKAY NEVER MIND

rvIceBreaker FEED ME MORE MATERIAL

rvIceBreaker STRAIGHT TO YOUTUBE SHORTS IT GOES

rvIceBreaker LUL "Doll" like its the fucking 40s around here

Lafolie_ https://gameprogrammingpatterns.com/state.html#pushdown-automata

rvIceBreaker Spiro wake up, pearl harbor was 100 years ago

rvIceBreaker @Lafolie_ Nice, thanks

rvIceBreaker Oh, its rob nystrom LUL

Lafolie_ It's a great technique, I use it a lot

rvIceBreaker that checks out

rvIceBreaker I really need to read his fucking books..

Lafolie_ Yeah I have a hard copy of that one. I should get a copy of his interpreter book as well

rvIceBreaker I've skimmed through both of them multiple times but I need to really find some time to sit down and read them cover to cover...

Lafolie_ To be honest since I ditched OOP a fair bit of it is kinda irrelevant, but it's good to understand the concepts anyways I guess

Lafolie_ That particular book was really influential for myself

rvIceBreaker sorry i couldn't hear you over the sound of implementing vtables in C...

rvIceBreaker Kappa

rvIceBreaker what did we do again?

rvIceBreaker so now what you do

rvIceBreaker is you implement the viewport as a ring buffer

rvIceBreaker and then you transform 12x12 blocks to be each side of a cube...

rvIceBreaker so you can sail around the cube

rvIceBreaker welcome to tile planet

rvIceBreaker well its not flat... its a cube

rvIceBreaker I think you should stop.

rvIceBreaker stop right there criminal scum.

rvIceBreaker in relation to the game or just in general

rvIceBreaker mmmm

rvIceBreaker multiple windows

rvIceBreaker sail from one window to another

rvIceBreaker popups for each region of the world

rvIceBreaker DUDE

rvIceBreaker Banner ads as a game mechanic

rvIceBreaker you have to sail into the banner ads

rvIceBreaker hahahaha

rvIceBreaker LUL

rvIceBreaker portal into the ad dimension

rvIceBreaker your sailing pirate game has taken a very sudden turn for the meta

vicentedealencar internet navigation

rvIceBreaker speaking of meta here's an idea for you

rvIceBreaker pirate sailing game, opening the shops just takes to to tpb

rvIceBreaker takes you* to tpb

rvIceBreaker trade in game with seed lists :)

Lafolie_ webtorrent

Lafolie_ Dman you beat me to it

Lafolie_ That's basically just peer-to-peer

rvIceBreaker pirate game pirating games

rvIceBreaker fighting the ads

Lafolie_ Call the game Pirate Seed

rvIceBreaker LUL

rvIceBreaker SPREAD THE SEED HAHAHAHA LUL

rvIceBreaker OFF TO CONQUER THE NATIVES, SPREADING THE SEED

Lafolie_ Tag it as a gardening game

rvIceBreaker HAHA

rvIceBreaker Who can stop us

rvIceBreaker someone must stop us

rvIceBreaker this can't happen

rvIceBreaker LUL

rvIceBreaker this is objectively the worst idea ever created

rvIceBreaker this is what leads to genocides

Lafolie_ Can we work QR codes in here somehow

rvIceBreaker The landscape is a QR code

Lafolie_ the tilemaps?

rvIceBreaker just use the tiles

Lafolie_ jynx

rvIceBreaker LUL

Lafolie_ You have to use your phone for it

Lafolie_ "mobile game"

rvIceBreaker This is pessimism distilled

rvIceBreaker personified

rvIceBreaker Its morally correct is the problem

rvIceBreaker This is what will establish video games as art. The ultimate societal comentary.

rvIceBreaker wait we can mix in some ARG here

rvIceBreaker make the world a huge qr code that you have to piece together in bits

Lafolie_ Fuck it get some geolocation in there as well. Perhaps as a random seed

rvIceBreaker mention nothing about it, let the community discover the easter egg

rvIceBreaker Not XR, more like puzzles that reach into the real world

Lafolie_ What's XR?

rvIceBreaker Ie the qr code is a phone number

NakorBlue how dont you know what ARG are. thery are in so many games as secrets and meta real world games.

rvIceBreaker https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Love_Bees

Lafolie_ They're used a lot for marketing too. Some really good albums had them (Year Zero <3)

NakorBlue that show Mr Robot had a famous one

rvIceBreaker ARGs are like baby's first red-team

rvIceBreaker Well I'm glad we got that out of our system, that was easily the greatest collection of the worst ideas ever

vicentedealencar gg

rvIceBreaker These css 3d skills will DEFINITELY translate into other fields Kappa

rvIceBreaker we're definitely learning the fundamentals here

rvIceBreaker spread the seed™️

PureAmbrosia 👀

Lafolie_ Thanks for the stream <3

rvIceBreaker @PureAmbrosia no rant :(

rvIceBreaker ... or maybe we got the rant after all

PureAmbrosia I think someone should get a refund fir next time.

rvIceBreaker I am definitely not able to i'm pretty sure...

rvIceBreaker you might just have to gift him points..

Lafolie_ spirod1HYPE

PureAmbrosia 😮

rvIceBreaker but I'm 99% sure i can't do that, since my points are also limited LUL

rvIceBreaker And I earned these points, damn it.

Lafolie_ You didn't name your pointerinos yet? pfft

NakorBlue i can see the refund thingy b ut i dont see a redeem by anyone named sargent or srgnt

Lafolie_ How about "Dangling Pointers"

rvIceBreaker He doesn't use pointers

Lafolie_ Seeds

NakorBlue Done!!

NakorBlue refunded

PureAmbrosia 👍

Lafolie_ byeee

PureAmbrosia spirod1Hi

rvIceBreaker I see it in mod view now

rvIceBreaker spirod1Hi

Lafolie_ spirod1Hi spirod1Hi spirod1Hi

rvIceBreaker later losers

hawksofcode hei, tech lead! )

hawksofcode how is it going with game development? )

hawksofcode gone )

rvIceBreaker discovered the magic of the 3rd dimension Kappa

hawksofcode so what is the project you're working on now if not a secret of course

hawksofcode cool 3d in css only

PureAmbrosia spirod1Hi

rvIceBreaker So I dunno if you have said since the C rewrite, what is the plan for boat chess in terms of twitch and stuff?

PureAmbrosia Is this the third day in a row? Are we getting spoiled.

rvIceBreaker I was just wondering if you were still shooting for the multiplayer stuff or saving it for later or if you dropped it or what

shreyassanthu Penetrating what?

rvIceBreaker I'll pray to your god, does that work

Lafolie_ Heya

shreyassanthu I call it skill issues

shreyassanthu and cope

jaythedeveloper @shreyassanthu ban @shreyassanthu

jaythedeveloper @shreyassanthu !ban @shreyassanthu LUL

shreyassanthu oh boy

shreyassanthu new achievement unlocked

rvIceBreaker I mean @shreyassanthu is hot so...

Lafolie_ Prattle queen

rvIceBreaker LUL spicy tonight

shreyassanthu did anyone tell him c is functional?

rvIceBreaker I still love you @shreyassanthu <3

shreyassanthu @rvicebreaker lol 😂 okay

rvIceBreaker we had fun, it was worth the distraction

PureAmbrosia Ooooooooooo let's go!

rvIceBreaker there's a state of js? I thought it was like a superposition

shreyassanthu your mom is a superposition

PureAmbrosia Yep yep

PureAmbrosia I need a good rant.

shreyassanthu I'm listening

rvIceBreaker grab your favorite beverage, make sure it contains alcohol

PureAmbrosia 👀

shreyassanthu @rvicebreaker I don't drink

rvIceBreaker @shreyassanthu well I don't much, but its probably a good time to start Kappa

shreyassanthu once a year

shreyassanthu One isa stack overflow survey

shreyassanthu and there's also state of html survey

Lafolie_ "How you use javaScript" reluctantly, whilst crying I'd imagine

rvIceBreaker @Lafolie_ drowning in a sea of your own tears of rage

shreyassanthu How tf are vite and react in the same category 🤣

shreyassanthu 🤣🤣🤣

rvIceBreaker Somebody call Badcop she got a W

rvIceBreaker Bash is back baby lfg jolliPOG

shreyassanthu Disagree

shreyassanthu I think you are wrong

Lafolie_ I do not understand the whole build step fad

shreyassanthu What does that mean??

Lafolie_ One of the best things about dynamic stuff is you have zeor compile times

shreyassanthu These stats mean nothing

Mikenhil Yo

Mikenhil YO

shreyassanthu @lafolie_ well that also makes the runtime slow af

Mikenhil Hello :)

rvIceBreaker I get it for bundling but..

Lafolie_ LuaJIT begs to differ

shreyassanthu yes lol

shreyassanthu dumb stats to measure

Marco Siedentopf good morning

shreyassanthu none of these stats have any sort of nuance

Lafolie_ Hang on a sec

shreyassanthu @lafolie_ oh I am hanging

rvIceBreaker Its kind of an interesting perspective being drawn there; tons of usage of build tools, also 30% complaints about build tools

Lafolie_ Doesn't code arch being the #1 issue suggest that the frameworks they're using are a problem?

shreyassanthu @lafolie_ lmfao react and next are a problem obviously

Lafolie_ 'cause the frameworks dictate the arch in a big way

shreyassanthu okay react is shit but what did vite do to you man?

shreyassanthu People don't have a choice tho

shreyassanthu some random cto watching theo is the one picking the framework

lemnean This is not a very zig friendly stream

Lafolie_ wtf is this graph

rvIceBreaker LUL

shreyassanthu It is bad data

lemnean Proof that zoomers don't know what they want

lemnean you are looking at their full emotional range

Lafolie_ Bottom left under the graph, do those buttons change the view?

Mikenhil @lemnean Does anybody REALLY know what they want?

rvIceBreaker I mean what even are these values supposed to represent, a scale from 1 to 5 or?...

lemnean @Mikenhil Put down the joint

Mikenhil @lemnean YOU CANT MAKE ME!!

shreyassanthu what thaaa fahk 😂

lemnean NotLikeThis

Owencodes yo ma boy

lemnean I apologize for interrupting your rant spiro

lemnean please continue

Marco Siedentopf using the comments to figure that out is doomed to begin with. you get the unhappy ones in there, and the happy ones won't bother to write anything

shreyassanthu Lmfao 🤣

Imperious Daily Reminder Spiro was on Hunter Bidens Laptop as a Prostitute

rvIceBreaker HAHA LUL

Owencodes spirod1Dance spirod1Dance spirod1Dance spirod1Dance spirod1Dance

rvIceBreaker That's a quote, put that on the back of the box for JS

Owencodes is there sound ?

Owencodes LUL LUL LUL SeemsGood

lemnean This is corroborating my key point

Owencodes haha js

Owencodes strim needs musac :D

PureAmbrosia LUL

Imperious Daily Reminder Spiro was on Hunter Bidens Laptop as a prostitute

Owencodes lol

lemnean I say let them rot in the framework stew

Owencodes Just read the bot haha

lemnean there are too many developers already

Lafolie_ The grammar is so bad in these comments

lemnean true elly knows what's up

Imperious Daily Reminder Spiro was on Hunter Bidens Laptop as a prostitute

Imperious lol

lemnean You are only allows to defame Spiro three times

lemnean *allowed

rvIceBreaker they don't know i still use float: left;

PureAmbrosia But tell us how you really feel Spiro.

lemnean MAKE IT STOP SPIRO

lemnean FOR THE LOVE OF GOD

shreyassanthu @spirodonfl you know what they say?

lemnean This is like that scene in a clockwork orange where they tape Alex's eyes open

Imperious Spiro was The man who "Took Care" of The Russian General

Mikenhil I like to go in raw with my code. No libraries. No frameworks. Just raw js.

lemnean @Mikenhil I take the same approach to your mom

Imperious Is this some kind of like nerd seminar?

lemnean @RestreamBot first time on spiro's stream?

Imperious Why are computer ppl so upset at technology lol

Mikenhil @lemnean You leave my motha outa this

Lafolie_ @RestreamBot Welcome to Enlightened Programming

rvIceBreaker Because we know how it works imperious

Lafolie_ Oh boy another one

rvIceBreaker or rather, that it doesn't work.

Imperious I'm not even like a tech person and I get mad but man this is like me hating books lol

shreyassanthu wierd kink

lemnean Javascript developers are never happy

lemnean they merely exist

Lafolie_ Spiro reading the comments I think the Bob-omb Battlefield theme would fit

lemnean all the newbies bring the average down

lemnean or rather, up

Imperious Is this like how happy people are using it or how happy the people who see the results are?

rvIceBreaker THAT GUY

rvIceBreaker THAT GUY KNOWS WHATS UP

lemnean as the old guard are slowly disillusioned, a new crop of bootcamp devs keep the happiness index up

rvIceBreaker REMOVE JAVASCRIPT FROM THE BROWSER 2025

Lafolie_ Do not redeem JS!

Imperious who is react?

shreyassanthu well a good way to put this is.... we're fucked

lemnean Spiro is taking us on a journey through his childhood

Lafolie_ ASM maybeee

Imperious Spiro seems like he needs a hug

Lafolie_ *baybeee

lemnean I think imperious is propositioning you

shreyassanthu @lafolie_ it's okay baby chill

lemnean Give a bootcamp monkey a PDP 11 and a million years and you will still not get unix

shreyassanthu brb

lemnean Old greek bemoans the loss of the golden age

Lafolie_ I wonder how much of an effect Java had in this as well

Marco Siedentopf Let me make a bold claim: everybody would be happier, if the maintenance fee wasn't that high for js frameworks.

Marco Siedentopf A friend of mine started a business 15 years ago, and made the strategic decision to build on php and not depend on external libraries - some upfront cost, but it's been a massive success story long term.

lemnean A true wordsmith

lemnean That sounds more like job security through obscurity

lemnean 'Hey jim, the magic framework is misbheaving again'

lemnean jim!?

Mikenhil Imagine they layoff the one guy who knows what everything does and they cant replace him lol

lemnean jim is dead

lemnean @Mikenhil That happens all the time

lemnean I don't agree with this analysis, I think it is mostly a function of companies like facebook pushing their shit and contaminating the culture

lemnean which is reinforced by groupthik

mr_elf_man ill be honest, the JS situation aint thaaaat bad

shreyassanthu Oh boy we still going?

Lafolie_ You will eat ze bugs, you will own nothing and code JS, and you will be happy.

PureAmbrosia It was a 2 for 1 deal rant. I love it.

lemnean motherfucking world mentioned

bewaretheleopard Just put the yaml into the black box, then fix it

lemnean ^

Mikenhil I dont like hard work

shreyassanthu well I don't care then 🤷‍♂️ it doesn't matter if I don't make money

shreyassanthu capitalism baybee

Mikenhil @shreyassanthu this

lemnean I think someone put cocaine in Spiro's red pill

shreyassanthu @lemnean oh he did it by himself

lemnean NotLikeThis

shreyassanthu Indian scammers mentioned

cmgriffing howdy cmgrifMrSir

shreyassanthu Yooooooooo @cmgriffing

rvIceBreaker LUL welcome raiders

PureAmbrosia Hi raiders!

rvIceBreaker buckle up

bekirpatrick if this is what it is usually like around here I am following right now

Lafolie_ Welcome in

zzaaddaa__SABER May because JS

Lafolie_ @bekirpatrick Yep

PureAmbrosia We are in the middle of an unhinged rant.

lemnean @cmgriffing Spiro is too busy raging against the machine to pay attention to you and your toque

shreyassanthu How are you @cmgriffing been a while since I was in your chat

zzaaddaa__SABER JS brain

cmgriffing Oh boy, I mentioned that you and I disagree about things, and it seems like we came in at one of those moments

cmgriffing BUT, I'M STILL A FAN

lemnean PogChamp PogChamp PogChamp PogChamp PogChamp PogChamp

cmgriffing @lemnean yeah, I see it, and this is something that he knows I disagree with him about.

shreyassanthu well money talks apparently

PureAmbrosia @bekirpatrick these rants are pretty normal.

cmgriffing Developer productivity is more important than CPU cycles

shreyassanthu @cmgriffing it's a tradeoff

lemnean @PureAmbrosia This is not a rant, God is speaking through him

lemnean pay attention

shreyassanthu All of it is tradeoffs

cmgriffing @shreyassanthu I get it, but in general developer time is a company's most expensive resource

zzaaddaa__SABER FBtouchdown FBtouchdown FBtouchdown FBtouchdown. Lets stop the JSers

zzaaddaa__SABER FBtouchdown FBtouchdown FBtouchdown FBtouchdown FBtouchdown

shreyassanthu @cmgriffing as a business owner I 1000% agreed

lemnean @cmgriffing A company's most precious resource is money, that's why there is lead in your water

Mikenhil Spiros got the hoodie. Im worried this might be a luigi style manifesto :(

rvIceBreaker L is real

shreyassanthu @rvicebreaker yeah looks like you are real

lemnean @Mikenhil He is Greek

lemnean the next best thing to italian

cmgriffing We all need to be business inded. Performance for perf's sake is one of the main reasons business doesn't listen to us

cmgriffing *business-minded

shreyassanthu I am pretty happy

shreyassanthu Yep

shreyassanthu Neovim is top notch

Marco Siedentopf metal working. you can build a lathe

cmgriffing best is bs. Prmius sucks

cmgriffing *Primus sucks

lemnean You are enraging the neovim simps Spiro

shreyassanthu Arch is top notch

lemnean hell hath no fury like an arch user scorned

Mikenhil I use arch btw

lemnean I use alpine

bewaretheleopard My nvim config is pretty lazy

shreyassanthu Supply chain attacks happen in c projects as well tho

cmgriffing supply-chain is not just a js problem. that is a false dichotomy

shreyassanthu Look at the recent router exploits

shreyassanthu @cmgriffing exactly

lemnean @shreyassanthu That is a different kind of supply chain attack. That has nothing to do with dependency supply chain attacks

rvIceBreaker Reject modernity. Remove stdlib

lemnean @rvIceBreaker LUL

rvIceBreaker Kappa

shreyassanthu Boy do I disagree with 90% of this

lemnean I agree with a solid 60%

cmgriffing !lurk guard rails are needed. look at highways. Should people stop driving cars because a horse and buggy doesnt need guard rails because it doesnt go fast enough to care?

lemnean and I am not even penalizing him for the hoodie

shreyassanthu @cmgriffing 😂😂😂😂

cmgriffing @shreyassanthu thanks

shreyassanthu no structs?

Marco Siedentopf STAHP HITTING THE TABLE

lemnean You are my favourite moron Spiro <3

Mikenhil Spiro is flexing on us

shreyassanthu But do you know css uses hardware acceleration

lemnean 'fucksies', man is dropping shakespearian bombs

cmgriffing someone please make sure he sees this comment: guard rails are needed. look at highways. Should people stop driving cars because a horse and buggy doesnt need guard rails because it doesnt go fast enough to care?

shreyassanthu All of html rendering is using skia which is accelerated the hell out of it

Mikenhil Minecraft was written in javascript

lemnean praise be to the ad break

shreyassanthu no that's a false dichotomy

cmgriffing nope. https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20180228-00/?p=98125

rvIceBreaker for some reason i'm missing mod options in chat...

cmgriffing Deliver value

shreyassanthu @rvicebreaker skill issue

shreyassanthu no nuance blanket statements are as bad as the influencers you're accusing of

cmgriffing @SpirodonFL I appreciate you but I disagree to a degree. At some point understanding the business case matters and thats how we become better. Please see: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20180228-00/?p=98125

shreyassanthu As a co founder of a company and a very good dev (pretty sure) I care more about money than quality if it comes down to that

shreyassanthu paying my employees is more important time me than anything

shreyassanthu *to me

PureAmbrosia PopCorn

rvIceBreaker @cmgriffing I think i'm going to push back on your guard rails comment; guard rails in the real world are mitigations to factors outside of our control. Arguably we have control in the context of our industry, one way or another

mr_elf_man man linux is pain. I'm trying to add an sftp account lol I've spent like 20 minutes at it

mr_elf_man oooo watch this guy's video on need for speed 2015

mr_elf_man that game is amazingly optimized

ateraztehmtehm Hello

shreyassanthu You fell off Spiro

ateraztehmtehm No audio

shreyassanthu reacting to videos now?

rvIceBreaker @SpirodonFL no audio

Lafolie_ No sound

shreyassanthu yep working

ateraztehmtehm Work

rvIceBreaker @SpirodonFL good to go

Lafolie_ got it

rvIceBreaker unrelated, TAA is cancer. Upscaling is cancer. Graphics pipelines are a fucking travesty.

PureAmbrosia Lordy...

rvIceBreaker I mean lacking context, I don't get that argument. UE runs like 40% worse in editor than in packaged, which would only improve his perf...

rvIceBreaker Alright, you lost me with an endorsement from Cherno...

shreyassanthu IT 👏 IS 👏 A 👏 TRADEOFF 👏

Lafolie_ gotta brb

rvIceBreaker true and valid, but as a user of UE I too agree Epic should provide better defaults out of the box... that's kind of the point.

shreyassanthu dev productivity and efficiency are almost inversely proportional

rvIceBreaker 'reasonable' its almost had a 90s level explosion since like 2018

PureAmbrosia My husband and I started our own rant on top of this rant. That floor hurt me.

shreyassanthu okay i gotta go byeeee

shreyassanthu Take care @spirodonfl

shreyassanthu Take care chat

shreyassanthu byeeeeee

rvIceBreaker later @shreyassanthu

rvIceBreaker @PureAmbrosia that geometry was disgusting

PureAmbrosia @rvicebreaker very disgusting.

helios0x2a What about industry people that care, like Jon Blow, his games don't run that much better than the average.

PureAmbrosia I got my money's worth and pain. I will be stuck on that floor for a minute.

helios0x2a Yeah, they don't know. And not knowing doesn't make their games slower.

Mikenhil Why dont you have a youtube channel?

Mikenhil You could clip that whole rant and make it a whole video

helios0x2a Devs have always been saved by Moore's law.

PureAmbrosia Only one way to get viewership.

Mikenhil ^^

mr_elf_man bro, just worry about big O complexity and everything will be fine /s

rvIceBreaker !discord

rvIceBreaker where's the bot NotLikeThis

Mikenhil !discord

SpirodonFL Join our discord and get inspired! https://discord.gg/7ZrQHjUsJ4

dmmulroy functional programming mentioned

PureAmbrosia Do you have a command for youtube?

ateraztehmtehm I am thinking about the rant, I think it applies heavily everywhere. The experts good software and others who use the software eventually undo the hard work by sloppy progaramming and statements like "We have X amount of RAM now adays or X amount of cores/Ghz"

dmmulroy alonzo church would like a word

mr_elf_man 100 linear loops is still O(n)

mr_elf_man fin proof!

dmmulroy disagree, you do not need the math at all

rvIceBreaker even fp languages have to break their own rules in order to be remotely useable in practice

Lafolie_ Literally Greek to the Greek guy

ateraztehmtehm CPU's heavily depend on predictable behaviours nowadays, especially when it comes to memory access.

dmmulroy The best ones do for sure rvice

Lafolie_ olive + wine = meal

cmgriffing @Lafolie_ All of the wine is a meal for sure (yes, a play on words)

WeLeaveTo_Night in what direction are you sailing your gamemaking ship? what games do you like?

mytec23 include stfool.h

elfologos Καλημέρα

elfologos no worries

mytec23 hello :)

Lafolie_ Mommy Nommy

ShaderKeeper it's mostly about making everything immutable, making pure functions, doing transformations, etc. Not really about math

WeLeaveTo_Night awesome I love Uncharted Waters

Lafolie_ I'm not on the immutable hype train

ShaderKeeper I'm talking about 'in reality', I was part of ~4 or so projects that was mostly functional programming

WeLeaveTo_Night I'll run that SNES KOEI music here and there still

ShaderKeeper yeah, in web dev it's very popular

ShaderKeeper it makes stuff really easily testable

ShaderKeeper cause pure functions are easy to unit tests

ShaderKeeper *test

ShaderKeeper yeah you can't make real time rendering, etc. stuff in a functional style.. but for high level decisions, state machines, etc. it's great

Lafolie_ Yeah that's why I'm happy with the Odin style of immutable, where it's mainly applied for procedure args

dmmulroy Local mutatbility and or ownership semantics are good as an fp stan

Lafolie_ (and you get your "DX" from that as well)

ShaderKeeper oh yeah we had some projects in Elm which is a purely functional web language and apparently it didn't go so well

rvIceBreaker local mutability is probably something everyone does as a baseline, if you're coding something relatively resilient

ShaderKeeper with typescript where it was possible to mix the styles it went well

rvIceBreaker fundamentally the systems that will execute any purely functional language will suffer from mutability and things that break the rules of fp. The concept is fundamentally not supported as soon as you step outside your executing code.

Mikenhil Tell me about the cool 45 degree angle view you got going on here

mytec23 what's up with all those errors?

ateraztehmtehm I learned haskell just to learn Rust.

ateraztehmtehm I am dumb, just based on the previous statement XD

ShaderKeeper I've tried webassembly too a long time ago with emscripten, I know today it's directly part of llvm clang, which is great

ShaderKeeper I hope the web standards people will come to their senses though and finally allow memory shrinking in web assembly

ateraztehmtehm I am doing great, thank you. How about you?

mytec23 thanks for the explanation

ShaderKeeper nice

ateraztehmtehm Oh wait, you rewrote the game in C?

ShaderKeeper yeah that's def smart for webassembly

ateraztehmtehm I love C

ShaderKeeper the static allocation I mean

ateraztehmtehm So its a C game, pun intended.

ateraztehmtehm hahah

ateraztehmtehm XD

elfologos haha

ShaderKeeper lol wtf XD

ateraztehmtehm God I just got divided by 0 XD

Lafolie_ We're the captain now

rvIceBreaker Hey ateraz

mytec23 what's he "sipping" on?

ateraztehmtehm Hello rvice

rvIceBreaker you're in charge :)

Mikenhil Get banned nerd!

ateraztehmtehm I like the abuse

ateraztehmtehm :)

rvIceBreaker <3

Lafolie_ NSFW stream uh oh

ShaderKeeper lol

mytec23 whiskey?

ShaderKeeper Kappa

ateraztehmtehm Its our channel now we share it.

ateraztehmtehm How many times has Spiro rewrote the game already?

mytec23 back in the USSR

s9tpepper_ what kind of degeneracy is going on here today?

ateraztehmtehm Its quite ironical that we can never get rid of C. We always try to replace it but we end up using it anyways.

PureAmbrosia Gotta make a video so @s9tpepper_ can watch.

s9tpepper_ damn, and I missed it LUL

SpirodonFL https://www.youtube.com/@SpiroFloropoulos

SpirodonFL https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMxRuaUYUtk&ab_channel=SpiroFloropoulos

s9tpepper_ this ought to be fun ... LUL

rvIceBreaker I did earlier

PureAmbrosia It's time for a Yoshi Hat.

rvIceBreaker but he gets another one

ateraztehmtehm Nice

PureAmbrosia With the hoodie 🤣 It's glorious.

mytec23 you need make sure this games looks best on CRT TV's

lemnean I dipped out for a bit

lemnean has Spiro found inner peace?

rvIceBreaker inner peas, outer peas, black eyed peas

lemnean peas peas release me

lemnean should be off again

lemnean later :)

mytec23 you don't need create npcs, just attract them with red Maga hats

Lafolie_ :/

mytec23 ocean? how about Sea?

mytec23 guns, lots of guns

ChronxDev yoo spiro, have you been doing any advent of code this year?

Lafolie_ Gonna need more than this, because a move/attack has several sub-phases. You have choices and confirmations to consider

Lafolie_ and animations too

rvIceBreaker @Lafolie_ ... I think pushdown automata just clicked in my head reading this LUL

Lafolie_ @rvIceBreaker Yuuuuup

Lafolie_ I honestly don't know of a better way to handle this

rvIceBreaker Well you could just block and not track the state, but you lose visibility

Lafolie_ @SpirodonFL https://gameprogrammingpatterns.com/state.html#pushdown-automata

rvIceBreaker @Lafolie_ I think his examples in this are a little weak, but this situation is a really good example

Lafolie_ Yeha I have used this exact pattern to implement a pokemon clone and it worked perfectly. Took like a day to get a full battle loop

mytec23 later

rvIceBreaker Honestly for this I would just have like a UIState enum and push that, handle UI on its own handler and push and pop... let the battle state dictate what next ui state to push

rvIceBreaker my only complaint (grain of salt) is that's going to very verbose and code reuse is cool

rvIceBreaker you're right in terms of the direction of communication; the renderer needs to poll. But being able to have a set of states that strictly dictate 'hey you should be showing a message box', 'hey you should be showing an option menu'

rvIceBreaker Don't let me tell you what to do :)

Mikenhil How are you able to read your code?!

Mikenhil Ngl that makes a lot of sense

ateraztehmtehm You know what I kind of do the same thing, when I read articles my eyes skip over noisy text like names and stuff.

rvIceBreaker alright jesus, one less stream to pay attention to LUL

rvIceBreaker I was watching 3 twitch streams at one time LUL

rvIceBreaker there was like 20 minutes where I lost track of all of them

rvIceBreaker He was yeah

JUANMA2692 hi how are you

rvIceBreaker He just ended

ateraztehmtehm He's like the security guy in the shopping mall, watching the cameras.

ateraztehmtehm rvice playing FNAF.

rvIceBreaker yes LUL

ateraztehmtehm XD

rvIceBreaker except its programming 🫠

ateraztehmtehm Ye the jump scares are still there though XD

rvIceBreaker wait false alarm...

Mikenhil Is this c++ or c?

ateraztehmtehm Oh the whole structs vs flat arrays conondrum XD

ateraztehmtehm @Mikenhil its C

JUANMA2692 Next year I will probably receive myself as a full stack programmer technician... web develloper and apps... front and back,.. any recommendations in this world, friend?

ateraztehmtehm @JUANMA2692 You Reacy for everything.

ateraztehmtehm *Reacty

ateraztehmtehm God doesn't want me to write this for some reason. XD

Mikenhil @JUANMA2692 Code projects you are working on in such a way only you can read and understand. Create as much job security as possible

dmmulroy disagree actually on react

rvIceBreaker LUL

dmmulroy I think it's Java

dmmulroy 100 percent

dmmulroy Java runs the world

rvIceBreaker you just can't fucking win around here Spiro, someone always disagrees

dmmulroy outside our little bubble

dmmulroy not a combeck, its always been there

ateraztehmtehm Use Pascal

rvIceBreaker 🤓 ACKTLY

dmmulroy the overwhelmingly majority of devs do enterprise java and c#

ateraztehmtehm No, no no use Fortran

dmmulroy There's more Java jobs than any other language

dmmulroy at least in the US

Mikenhil Just remember. We didnt start the fire. It was always burning, since the worlds been turning.

dmmulroy Spring Boot

Mikenhil OOOOH COPYRIGHT STRIKE!!!

Mikenhil SINGING COPYRIGHT LYRICS ON STREAM!!!

ateraztehmtehm The good old days when "happy birthday" was copyright infringement.

JUANMA2692 thankss

Mikenhil Java is actually good for getting a job? I learned it when I was kid making minecraft server plugins but I had no idea it was actually good for anything else

ateraztehmtehm The Meta pattent

rvIceBreaker patent pending

dmmulroy every giant corporation on the planet runs on java

ateraztehmtehm Credit cards and SIM cards run Java (fact)

helios0x2a Android

dmmulroy it might not land you a fancy tech job, but it will land a job to get your foot in the door

dmmulroy on over 8 billion devices btw

ateraztehmtehm hahaha

Mikenhil Nice

dmmulroy ty for picking up on the joke @ateraztehmtehm

rvIceBreaker get a job you bum

ateraztehmtehm Ye I installed Java before

ateraztehmtehm Did you know GraalVM can compile Java to Native executables.

ateraztehmtehm "Enumerated"

TitaniumCladStudios You always pseudo code in comments first? No judgement, just curious

TitaniumCladStudios Totally get that, I should try it sometime, seems valuable. You leave them in afterwards?

TitaniumCladStudios Time up front is the missing piece these days though, like we talked about last time

Lafolie_ forgot }

Lafolie_ oh it was on the other line

rvIceBreaker still processing the rant LUL

ateraztehmtehm doing good, beating my head against the wall from OpenGL.

Lafolie_ ah welcome to the club

rvIceBreaker I mean we basically do

ateraztehmtehm Vulkan was meant to do that with SPIR-V

Lafolie_ Spir-v is an IR

helios0x2a xkcd 927

Lafolie_ It's not meant to be a front-end standard

Lafolie_ That's sorta like saying LLVM IR bytecode is a universal language for developing in

rvIceBreaker I dunno having two options, hlsl and glsl seems like a low enough number of competing standards that its not worth getting bent out of shape over

ateraztehmtehm Ye it provides a common platform though

ateraztehmtehm Its like Java bytecode

ateraztehmtehm You have compatible languages there like Scala Kotlin etc

rvIceBreaker the state of shader languages is not the state of javascript LUL

Lafolie_ There's some trendy newish one called glslang that's supposed to be defacto, but people already have hang-ups

rvIceBreaker For what it matters you have a shader language specific to each graphics api vendor... so OGL and DX

Lafolie_ THe problem is that GL dictated that vendors could compile shaders themselves because we had directx and opengl with differing things

Lafolie_ So now spir-v is meant to be a way to precompile shaders

rvIceBreaker I think spir-v is meant to be a transpiler

ateraztehmtehm Ye GPU drivers compile shaders SPIR-V was meant to give more control to programmers.

Lafolie_ Which allows anyone in the know to develop their own shading lang (again, like how llvm works)

ateraztehmtehm Ye SPIR-V still is a thing

Lafolie_ No, it's the competing standards thing again

rvIceBreaker well vulcan is still kind of going through churn too

ateraztehmtehm There are a lot of tools that use SPIR-V I think even DirectX can use it but I don't think Metal can.

rvIceBreaker I think even khronos has encountered the design-by-comitee issue

Lafolie_ spir-v doesn't have a developer friendly lang to go with it, like glsl. You compile your glsl/hlsl/gslang/whatever TO spir-v, which then outputs the actual binaries for the gpus

rvIceBreaker because openGL set a standard and everyone got in line back in the 3dfx days

rvIceBreaker within a handful of years

Lafolie_ Bloody hell Dofus

Lafolie_ Not heard that for a long time

ateraztehmtehm GG spiro see you next time

Lafolie_ Thanks for the stream <3

rvIceBreaker I mean until ms fucked that up with directX LUL

rvIceBreaker but hey two options isn't terrible...

ateraztehmtehm +1 to that

PureAmbrosia spirod1Hi